To safari or not to safari...
 

Ahoy,

I'm about to restore my "barn" find champagne yellow '73 911t, with the intent of selling it when it's done. I've had it for about 10 years and always planned on doing a mild safari/rally style build with it for myself, I'm a rally guy at heart and I've always loved these cars in rally attire. Unfortunately, things have changed and I've decided to restore her and sell her right away, and I'm debating if I still should do a rally inspired build. I know safari builds are pretty "hot" right now, and I'd really love to see my vision come to life, even if it ends up parked in someone else's garage. On the other hand, I don't want to hurt the value...just not sure if a proper safari build is value added or lost at this point.

I wouldn't go extreme or do anything irreversible, mostly just thinking of adding a Leitz style roof rack, horn grill lights (and maybe Cibie pallas hood lights), Amco front and rear bumper bars, vintage dash rally clocks, Bilstein 1000 lakes rally inserts, rear mud flaps, and 205/65r15 gravel tires (already on it actually). I'm not looking to go crazy with giant tires and lift, rather just add some cool Porsche optional parts and period correct add ons, still keep it "classic longhood" but with a little rally flair.

So what say ye...keep it tarmac oriented or join the safari bandwagon?;)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1743111353.jpg

Not sure I’ve seen a safari long hood, not sure I want to. If you aren’t keeping it, restore it and move on. Let then next guy decide what it should be

Safari sounds like a fun option. there's a company Werks Gruppe who sells some great safari add ons and even do the building if you want to send them the car. one thing i would advise is making sure you have enough power to move the extra weight (especially from chunky tires).

I definitely have, including this beauty that is also champagne, love to see them getting dirty!



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I'm going to do the build myself, but there are definitely some cool aftermarket parts out there for safari builds these days. Elephant racing also has an awesome safari suspension setup for them. I'd keep her pretty close to stock though...the factory torsion bars are actually a great gravel spring rate, and the Bilstein rally spec inserts/shocks should make it perform really well in the dirt if the new owner is ballsy enough. I may give it a little bit of a lift by adjusting the torsion bars, but for high speed gravel work the factory setting on these early cars is probably enough travel.

I just bought Wossner 10:1 pistons today, using S heads, dc30 cams, and ITBs/COP...should be more than enough to send up some rooster tails with rally tires;)

Until today I had no idea these Amco bumper bars or the Leitz roof racks were a factory option...and I'm a sucker for cool, rare, original parts;)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1743112781.jpg

Since you asked, I don't see the point of a Safari conversion if you're not keeping the car. It will likely cost more to add the Safari bits, plus you'd be restricting your base of potential buyers. In any case, good luck with the sale.

Opinions are definitely what I'm looking for, and I appreciate your thoughts! The cost is honestly pretty close on the final configurations either way. It looks like it would cost me about $1500-2k to add the "rally" bits and if I switch to tarmac I'll have at least $1k into new rubber, plus I'd probably switch to slightly stiffer torsion bars. I'm definitely concerned about limiting my buyer base, but I've also seen some crazy sale prices on safari inspired builds lately so it looks like there is a high demand in that venue too, just not sure which is bigger/better at this point.

I can't help but love them;)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1743117491.jpg

I always kind of liked the European rally car look, sans tires on the roof. The African desert car look, not so much. If you want a jeep, it won't be pretty (and a limited market place).

That's what I'd be going for, not a giant tired monstrosity, nothing that isn't able to be returned to stock. Although I definitely wouldn't kick the Singer Safari build out of my bed! I'd only use Porsche original/repro parts with a few period rally bits sprinkled in, and standard rally 15" tires are actually pretty close to the same size specs as the 185/70r15 most people use on these. With a 2nd set of wheels with factory sized summer tires it would also double as a "tarmac rally" setup. Choices, choices...

Safari cars look really cool and I’m sure a lot of fun but if your goal is to sell it, you want to go as stock as possible. That will hit the majority of buyers compared to the safari or any hot rod theme. Just like selling real estate, the highly personalized cars, houses, whatever, appeals to a smaller niche of buyers than the more stock, mainstream product. If your goal is to sell, then don’t build it for you, build it for the most likely buyer.

It's a fad that people will be undoing one day. I think a period looking rally car sort of build would be cool but most "safari" cars end up looking cartoonish and stupid. This is of course my opinion.

Since you're not keeping it just sell it as-is and make a bunch of money.

Yeah, I know...but you guys aren't supposed to be my voice of reason, I've got a wife for that;)

Yeah, that's probably the case...but as a rally guy I'm not complaining! I think the market is going through a long term change though...kids of this generation don't care about originality as much anymore, they'd rather have a fast, wild car that stands out than a bone stock 145hp stock T that would lose in a race to most new sedans. As sad as it is, the fact that high end EV swapped early body cars are pulling more than completely original examples definitely shows a shift in the market, one that I think will likely only get worse with each passing generation.

I'm definitely not looking to bastardize this car though. I'm definitely a purist to a large extent, and I love the rally history and pedigree of this brand. I should change the title, I guess I lump safari and rally builds, but I'd only do a tasteful rally inspired build, the only thing of significance that wouldn't be OE Porsche (or repro) would be the ever so slightly larger gravel tires, a set of mud flaps, and maybe some rally timer clocks. The bars, lights, and roof rack are all out of the original options catalog so the purists shouldn't be able to scold me too bad;)

I'm definitely going to restore her before I sell her...the build is actually most the fun for me, I love to "create," and I've been dreaming about finishing this car for too long not to get to drive her at this point. There will definitely be another one in the future for me, but at this point these long hoods are too valuable and I've got other irons in the fire, need to get her back on the road for the first time in 46 years and get her in the hands of someone that will enjoy her.

No one can tell you about future values.

Just do it and post the pics.

Isn't the front practically at rally heights ? :)

I'll definitely do a build thread when I start in May one way or the other. I'm definitely tempted to go the rally route, haven't seen a classy one with all of the cool OE Porsche bits, might bridge the purist-safari gap;)

These long hoods definitely didn't come off the line "slammed," they really are at pretty close to proper rally heights, maybe just a slight twist of the torsion bars upward. The gravel tires on it are only a half inch taller than factory too, can hardly tell they aren't stock until you see the knobbies.

No one can tell you about future values (especially in niche market segments), but all other things being equal... The further you deviate from stock / original, the higher the risk of reducing your total addressable market. The smaller the TAM, the lower the average sales price or the longer the "days on the market," or... both.

Build it the way you want, but you're making a bet (the ante being the additional build costs) to risk a lower sales price. Be intellectually honest that you are not playing the percentages.

Maybe you'll strike gold and you'll find a buyer that will pay you for building a car the way you wanted to build it? Most likely, however, is that the higher bill of materials + lower sale price will be the cost to scratch your Safari build itch. You'd be trading $$ for "units of pleasure." Not that there's anything wrong with that.

God speed and good luck.

Just came from the Hill Country Rallye in Texas and there were actually more safari builds there than I expected.

From someone who has traveled by moto and an older modified Land Rover on three different continents there were times where I wish owned a slightly "safaried" 911.

Fast forward and I have moved from Texas to the Midwest and a safari build here would be great. From 4 seasons, pot holes from the salted roads, to so many gravel roads just the ground clearance alone would be incredibly useful.

In fact, we have been looking for properties out in the country, 10 plus acres and mostly on gravel roads. So, the thought has crossed my mind a few times with my 86.

All that said, as the owner of "near" show cars to my last eBay fly in and drive home 180,000 miles plus 911, if you do it tastefully and don't shortcut, I think there are buyers out there. The examples you posted photos of I am sure there is a happy medium you could aim for.


From someone who understands the purist side of things I also think it gets taken too far...I have owned everything from a 1949 Land Rover, 70's MG's, 73 Saab, mid 80's RX7's, mid 80's VW Sciroccos, 80's Classic Range Rovers, to modern day cars and motorcycles and I have never seen a group more worried about resale than Porsche owners. Which I respectfully understand...but...


My advice is have a vision, keep it honest, don't Frankenstein the thing and have fun with the build. I think there are more people around here, than one thinks, that love watching these safari build threads secretly...I being one of them ;)

Just at the Porsche dealer in Kansas City (a couple times over the past few weeks) and out back there was a mint green, mid 80s, you guessed it Safari build...they are out there and there is a market, but as others have stated just has to be the right day and the right time for the right buyer. You enthusiastically seem to understand this and open to pros and cons, so that alone is a good start.



All the best!
Erik



Not mine, but these two caught a lot of attention at the Rallye. Especially from the young (and the young at heart):

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At the dealer (last week) in KC, MO mine and modern Safari:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1743158795.JPG

This is definitely my concern, I guess I'm just trying to talk myself into the "outlaw" market on these cars being strong enough to balance it out so I can have my cake and eat it too. Potentially trading money for "units of pleasure" is a good way to look at it...and it's never been too hard to convince me to go to a strip club;)http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/lol2.gif

That's the question...is it worth risking return to realize a vision? I guess we don't have any of the amazing customs we all love if builders don't risk it, just not sure if I'm that guy on this one yet.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts!

I appreciate the thoughts and vote of confidence! I still haven't decided, but like you, I've seen a lot of safari builds out there lately and there is definitely a large and growing following for them. I lived in WI in a county with mostly dirt/gravel roads and a rally inspired 911 would have been nirvana...my Subaru rally car was a pretty fun substitute though lol.

On that front, if anyone is looking for an amazing road trip, take an AWD or 4x4 vehicle and do the Trans Wisconsin Adventure Trail, lovingly referred to as the "TWAT." It's 600 miles of the best roads in WI, starting at the IL border and ending at the northernmost town in WI (Cornucopia) on Lake Superior, about 50:50 paved to gravel/dirt. It was originally created as a dual sport route, did it once on my Cagiva Gran Canyon, but they also modified it into an overland route that I did in my AWD GMC Savana van and a buddy did in his Subaru wagon. It's an incredible route, beautiful changing scenery and great roads, with great camping along the way, a must do for backroad and camping enthusiasts, one of the best adventures of my life.

I love going to rallies (not political;) )...the fans are amazing, the race teams are welcoming, and the eclectic mix of race and spectator cars is second to none. Here's me and my old rally built Subaru with rally legend Petter Solberg at the Lake Superior Performance Rally in the "UP." That's another experience I highly recommend, one of the great events in motorsports.


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Does anyone have any definitive information on this style of bumper bar/bow? I've read it was/is a genuine Porsche part, that it is an Amco bar (that may or may not have been available through Porsche as an option), and that it wasn't Porsche or Amco but another unknown aftermarket brand. They definitely seem to be period correct at minimum and I've seen a few very stock appearing early cars with them, making me think they were indeed available from Porsche one way or another. Any insight?

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Definitive or at least what I know… the bar above was a factory installed bar. I have one on a 67S, don’t recall it being listed on the kardex. Pretty sure it’s stainless also. The Amco bars were an aftermarket chrome part and drilled into and between the bumperettes. And then rusted! Rather ugly add on to “protect” the hood.
I will add that both bar styles make the hood latch less accessible.
In regards to safari or not. It’s your car, do what you like. Cash out reward is a gamble on modified. Color change is always a debate. Mods have the same debate. Long run…stock original is the blue chip. The argument will be but this car, that car and several others brought big money. Go fish! It’s a big pond and life’s short. I have also warned customers, modifications have ramifications!

I’m finishing a 73T overall now, leaving it sepia and black bumperettes front and back. Only mod is a steel based ducktail that I make, and can be easily swapped back. The next owner can make that call.

I built this , great challenge and fantastic memories including east to west coast and back! From a 94 C4…my drive to workhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1743357302.jpg

Utah…
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Big Sur…
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I appreciate the insight! I wish I could find that style in someone's Kardex or one of the accessory catalogs to close the loop on this style of bar, but accounts like yours definitely point to them being a Porsche supplied part. Interesting you think it's stainless, thats the first I've heard that and an added bonus. I definitely prefer this style bar to the Amco front, these actually add a little "rally flair." This style bar also pairs well with the rear single bar that mounts on top of the bumperettes instead of in between. They are equally as rare, wonder if they were offered at the same time.

I appreciate yours (and everyone's) thoughtful opinion on this. I'm surprised I haven't been berated for even asking something so blasphemous;) It sounds like everyone sees this much like I do...doing anything radical is likely a recipe for disaster on resale, a classy rally approach maybe less so, but all modifications are a gamble that may or may not pay off on the return. The offset in enjoyment on the build may be worth the price, just need to strike a healthy balance that is acceptable for each individual owner. At least it doesn't sound like anyone will be burning a cross in my lawn if I do go through with it (unless I pull out the sawzall);)

There definitely won't be a color change in this girl's future, it looks like she is a 1 of 1 champagne T for '73. Plus, she went into a heated garage in 79 and never came back out so she is completely rust free. Other than a few minor touch ups and a good buff/wax, the bodywork is near perfect. The more I dig into OE available Porsche parts, the more I'm tempted to go down the rally inspired path. It looks like almost everything I would put on her would be Porsche OE (or repro) other than the tires which are basically OE size in a knobbie. I know 6 of the original STs were rally builds, and it looks like Porsche offered a rally inspired build for the masses if you optioned the bars, flaps, and lights. It can't be bad if Porsche offered it that way right?;)

That C4 is nasty! You built my dream car! I recently drove 7500 miles around the west in my AWD van, mostly on dirt/gravel national forest roads...I can't imagine what that trip would have been like in your car! Keep up the good work!

More fuel for my dirty desires...



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Didn't know about these sweet Porsche mud flaps until I saw that car...I love 'em!

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+1

Vanilla sells ..

You may be able to get away with just cranking your torsion bars up for a small lift. We're so used to seeing slammed 911's that they look raised even at stock height. If you decide to go the rally route and want a decent suspension I've got an almost new Bilstein set-up with raised spindle struts I can deal on. We've upgraded to MCS.

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What is the source for the Porsche mud flaps?

I know...the problem is I'm far from a vanilla type of guy lol.

There is/was a couple of guys over on the 911s registry that were selling some reproductions they had made, one had brackets to mount them as well. I haven't contacted them to see if they still have any, have also seen them for sale on Samba, may take some searching to find. I do really like them though...

That was my plan/thought, a small lift by cranking the torsion bars, they are at a pretty decent rally height stock already. The Bilstein 1000 lakes front inserts and rear shocks should fix the valving issue and the stock torsion bars are plenty soft for rally. That's my thought...with basically no real mods and just adding some Porsche optional parts you could make a pretty capable and cool/classy looking rally inspired car for the street that would make a great daily for a lot of people.

Seeing stables like yours doesn't make the choice any easier;)

So...after much soul searching and debate, against my better judgement (and the much appreciated opinions of many of you), I have decided to go through with the rally inspired build. The more I dug, the more cool/rare rally oriented Porsche OE available parts I found, and the more I was drawn to realizing my vision in the way Porsche intended and made available. I've yet to see anyone put together a car with all of the rally oriented accessories, and this is my opportunity to create something that is unique yet still true to the originality of the car and era. As others have mentioned, nobody can accurately guess the end value, and I think a classy rally build has the possibility of drawing more attention as much as it has the potential to turn some away, only the auction results will tell in the end. I like to think I have pretty good taste and have done well on cars sales over the years as a result, and I've decided this is no time to abandon my vision. In the end, a rally build excites me more than anything else, and I'm willing to roll the dice on the outcome. Greatness only come to those that have passion and take risks, hopefully that pays off on this build in the end.

Thanks for the rational and measured opinions here gentleman, I'll start a build thread soon to keep you in the loop on the progess.

I know the red car above very well, it's a friend of mine. He has owned many 911s and this is by far his favorite. The Rat Rod. 1976 Mid year with flares. 500+ horses under the hood, modified suspension, and gears. He's not allowed to wash it! It is a Rally machine.

Thanks.

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https://youtu.be/t3_yBf4N6IE?si=4ddW8Q-xDn9s1DlC


For those rainy days in the shop :)


Erik

As an FYI..."JimmyT" over on early S still has the flaps (poly repros), he's out of the brackets but is going to be making more. He also has/makes repros of the long hood OE skid plates. I was able to track down his email if you are interested and don't have an early S membership, just shoot me a PM and I'll give it to you.

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It's another sunny day down here in Nica but now I know what I'm watching with my afternoon cigar
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Thanks...just watched that...now I have something else at the top of my bucket list;)

After I get my business off the ground down here in Nica I plan on building another rally car to compete in the WRC affiliated events down here in Costa Rica. I'd love to build a 914, but there isn't much to choose from down here, will likely be another Subaru or maybe a vintage Toyota, have always wanted to build an early 80s Starlet.

Sure, please send me his email. I'm not a member of the Early 911S. Thanks, PK