To safari or not to safari...

[JKarow08]

Ahoy,

I'm about to restore my "barn" find champagne yellow '73 911t, with the intent of selling it when it's done. I've had it for about 10 years and always planned on doing a mild safari/rally style build with it for myself, I'm a rally guy at heart and I've always loved these cars in rally attire. Unfortunately, things have changed and I've decided to restore her and sell her right away, and I'm debating if I still should do a rally inspired build. I know safari builds are pretty "hot" right now, and I'd really love to see my vision come to life, even if it ends up parked in someone else's garage. On the other hand, I don't want to hurt the value...just not sure if a proper safari build is value added or lost at this point.

I wouldn't go extreme or do anything irreversible, mostly just thinking of adding a Leitz style roof rack, horn grill lights (and maybe Cibie pallas hood lights), Amco front and rear bumper bars, vintage dash rally clocks, Bilstein 1000 lakes rally inserts, rear mud flaps, and 205/65r15 gravel tires (already on it actually). I'm not looking to go crazy with giant tires and lift, rather just add some cool Porsche optional parts and period correct add ons, still keep it "classic longhood" but with a little rally flair.

So what say ye...keep it tarmac oriented or join the safari bandwagon?

[Jjm4life]

Not sure I’ve seen a safari long hood, not sure I want to. If you aren’t keeping it, restore it and move on. Let then next guy decide what it should be

[mark4ton]

Safari sounds like a fun option. there's a company Werks Gruppe who sells some great safari add ons and even do the building if you want to send them the car. one thing i would advise is making sure you have enough power to move the extra weight (especially from chunky tires).

[JKarow08]

I definitely have, including this beauty that is also champagne, love to see them getting dirty!

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by mark4ton

Safari sounds like a fun option. there's a company Werks Gruppe who sells some great safari add ons and even do the building if you want to send them the car. one thing i would advise is making sure you have enough power to move the extra weight (especially from chunky tires).

I'm going to do the build myself, but there are definitely some cool aftermarket parts out there for safari builds these days. Elephant racing also has an awesome safari suspension setup for them. I'd keep her pretty close to stock though...the factory torsion bars are actually a great gravel spring rate, and the Bilstein rally spec inserts/shocks should make it perform really well in the dirt if the new owner is ballsy enough. I may give it a little bit of a lift by adjusting the torsion bars, but for high speed gravel work the factory setting on these early cars is probably enough travel.

I just bought Wossner 10:1 pistons today, using S heads, dc30 cams, and ITBs/COP...should be more than enough to send up some rooster tails with rally tires

[JKarow08]

Until today I had no idea these Amco bumper bars or the Leitz roof racks were a factory option...and I'm a sucker for cool, rare, original parts

[Fab64]

Since you asked, I don't see the point of a Safari conversion if you're not keeping the car. It will likely cost more to add the Safari bits, plus you'd be restricting your base of potential buyers. In any case, good luck with the sale.

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by Fab64

Since you asked, I don't see the point of a Safari conversion if you're not keeping the car. It will likely cost more to add the Safari bits, plus you'd be restricting your base of potential buyers. In any case, good luck with the sale.

Opinions are definitely what I'm looking for, and I appreciate your thoughts! The cost is honestly pretty close on the final configurations either way. It looks like it would cost me about $1500-2k to add the "rally" bits and if I switch to tarmac I'll have at least $1k into new rubber, plus I'd probably switch to slightly stiffer torsion bars. I'm definitely concerned about limiting my buyer base, but I've also seen some crazy sale prices on safari inspired builds lately so it looks like there is a high demand in that venue too, just not sure which is bigger/better at this point.

[JKarow08]

I can't help but love them

[smadsen]

I always kind of liked the European rally car look, sans tires on the roof. The African desert car look, not so much. If you want a jeep, it won't be pretty (and a limited market place).

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by smadsen

I always kind of liked the European rally car look, sans tires on the roof. The African desert car look, not so much. If you want a jeep, it won't be pretty (and a limited market place).

That's what I'd be going for, not a giant tired monstrosity, nothing that isn't able to be returned to stock. Although I definitely wouldn't kick the Singer Safari build out of my bed! I'd only use Porsche original/repro parts with a few period rally bits sprinkled in, and standard rally 15" tires are actually pretty close to the same size specs as the 185/70r15 most people use on these. With a 2nd set of wheels with factory sized summer tires it would also double as a "tarmac rally" setup. Choices, choices...

[mepstein]

Safari cars look really cool and I’m sure a lot of fun but if your goal is to sell it, you want to go as stock as possible. That will hit the majority of buyers compared to the safari or any hot rod theme. Just like selling real estate, the highly personalized cars, houses, whatever, appeals to a smaller niche of buyers than the more stock, mainstream product. If your goal is to sell, then don’t build it for you, build it for the most likely buyer.

[ryans65]

It's a fad that people will be undoing one day. I think a period looking rally car sort of build would be cool but most "safari" cars end up looking cartoonish and stupid. This is of course my opinion.

Since you're not keeping it just sell it as-is and make a bunch of money.

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by mepstein

Safari cars look really cool and I’m sure a lot of fun but if your goal is to sell it, you want to go as stock as possible. That will hit the majority of buyers compared to the safari or any hot rod theme. Just like selling real estate, the highly personalized cars, houses, whatever, appeals to a smaller niche of buyers than the more stock, mainstream product. If your goal is to sell, then don’t build it for you, build it for the most likely buyer.

Yeah, I know...but you guys aren't supposed to be my voice of reason, I've got a wife for that

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by ryans65

It's a fad that people will be undoing one day. I think a period looking rally car sort of build would be cool but most "safari" cars end up looking cartoonish and stupid. This is of course my opinion.

Since you're not keeping it just sell it as-is and make a bunch of money.

Yeah, that's probably the case...but as a rally guy I'm not complaining! I think the market is going through a long term change though...kids of this generation don't care about originality as much anymore, they'd rather have a fast, wild car that stands out than a bone stock 145hp stock T that would lose in a race to most new sedans. As sad as it is, the fact that high end EV swapped early body cars are pulling more than completely original examples definitely shows a shift in the market, one that I think will likely only get worse with each passing generation.

I'm definitely not looking to bastardize this car though. I'm definitely a purist to a large extent, and I love the rally history and pedigree of this brand. I should change the title, I guess I lump safari and rally builds, but I'd only do a tasteful rally inspired build, the only thing of significance that wouldn't be OE Porsche (or repro) would be the ever so slightly larger gravel tires, a set of mud flaps, and maybe some rally timer clocks. The bars, lights, and roof rack are all out of the original options catalog so the purists shouldn't be able to scold me too bad

I'm definitely going to restore her before I sell her...the build is actually most the fun for me, I love to "create," and I've been dreaming about finishing this car for too long not to get to drive her at this point. There will definitely be another one in the future for me, but at this point these long hoods are too valuable and I've got other irons in the fire, need to get her back on the road for the first time in 46 years and get her in the hands of someone that will enjoy her.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by JKarow08

Ahoy,

I'm about to restore my "barn" find champagne yellow '73 911t, with the intent of selling it when it's done. I've had it for about 10 years and always planned on doing a mild safari/rally style build with it for myself, I'm a rally guy at heart and I've always loved these cars in rally attire. Unfortunately, things have changed and I've decided to restore her and sell her right away, and I'm debating if I still should do a rally inspired build. I know safari builds are pretty "hot" right now, and I'd really love to see my vision come to life, even if it ends up parked in someone else's garage. On the other hand, I don't want to hurt the value...just not sure if a proper safari build is value added or lost at this point.

I wouldn't go extreme or do anything irreversible, mostly just thinking of adding a Leitz style roof rack, horn grill lights (and maybe Cibie pallas hood lights), Amco front and rear bumper bars, vintage dash rally clocks, Bilstein 1000 lakes rally inserts, rear mud flaps, and 205/65r15 gravel tires (already on it actually). I'm not looking to go crazy with giant tires and lift, rather just add some cool Porsche optional parts and period correct add ons, still keep it "classic longhood" but with a little rally flair.

So what say ye...keep it tarmac oriented or join the safari bandwagon?

No one can tell you about future values.

Just do it and post the pics.

Isn't the front practically at rally heights ?

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by pmax

No one can tell you about future values.

Just do it and post the pics.

Isn't the front practically at rally heights ?

I'll definitely do a build thread when I start in May one way or the other. I'm definitely tempted to go the rally route, haven't seen a classy one with all of the cool OE Porsche bits, might bridge the purist-safari gap

These long hoods definitely didn't come off the line "slammed," they really are at pretty close to proper rally heights, maybe just a slight twist of the torsion bars upward. The gravel tires on it are only a half inch taller than factory too, can hardly tell they aren't stock until you see the knobbies.

[famoroso]

No one can tell you about future values (especially in niche market segments), but all other things being equal... The further you deviate from stock / original, the higher the risk of reducing your total addressable market. The smaller the TAM, the lower the average sales price or the longer the "days on the market," or... both.

Build it the way you want, but you're making a bet (the ante being the additional build costs) to risk a lower sales price. Be intellectually honest that you are not playing the percentages.

Maybe you'll strike gold and you'll find a buyer that will pay you for building a car the way you wanted to build it? Most likely, however, is that the higher bill of materials + lower sale price will be the cost to scratch your Safari build itch. You'd be trading $$ for "units of pleasure." Not that there's anything wrong with that.

God speed and good luck.

[fallingat120mph]

Just came from the Hill Country Rallye in Texas and there were actually more safari builds there than I expected.

From someone who has traveled by moto and an older modified Land Rover on three different continents there were times where I wish owned a slightly "safaried" 911.

Fast forward and I have moved from Texas to the Midwest and a safari build here would be great. From 4 seasons, pot holes from the salted roads, to so many gravel roads just the ground clearance alone would be incredibly useful.

In fact, we have been looking for properties out in the country, 10 plus acres and mostly on gravel roads. So, the thought has crossed my mind a few times with my 86.

All that said, as the owner of "near" show cars to my last eBay fly in and drive home 180,000 miles plus 911, if you do it tastefully and don't shortcut, I think there are buyers out there. The examples you posted photos of I am sure there is a happy medium you could aim for.


From someone who understands the purist side of things I also think it gets taken too far...I have owned everything from a 1949 Land Rover, 70's MG's, 73 Saab, mid 80's RX7's, mid 80's VW Sciroccos, 80's Classic Range Rovers, to modern day cars and motorcycles and I have never seen a group more worried about resale than Porsche owners. Which I respectfully understand...but...


My advice is have a vision, keep it honest, don't Frankenstein the thing and have fun with the build. I think there are more people around here, than one thinks, that love watching these safari build threads secretly...I being one of them

Just at the Porsche dealer in Kansas City (a couple times over the past few weeks) and out back there was a mint green, mid 80s, you guessed it Safari build...they are out there and there is a market, but as others have stated just has to be the right day and the right time for the right buyer. You enthusiastically seem to understand this and open to pros and cons, so that alone is a good start.



All the best!
Erik



Not mine, but these two caught a lot of attention at the Rallye. Especially from the young (and the young at heart):






At the dealer (last week) in KC, MO mine and modern Safari:

[JKarow08]

Originally Posted by famoroso

No one can tell you about future values (especially in niche market segments), but all other things being equal... The further you deviate from stock / original, the higher the risk of reducing your total addressable market. The smaller the TAM, the lower the average sales price or the longer the "days on the market," or... both.

Build it the way you want, but you're making a bet (the ante being the additional build costs) to risk a lower sales price. Be intellectually honest that you are not playing the percentages.

Maybe you'll strike gold and you'll find a buyer that will pay you for building a car the way you wanted to build it? Most likely, however, is that the higher bill of materials + lower sale price will be the cost to scratch your Safari build itch. You'd be trading $$ for "units of pleasure." Not that there's anything wrong with that.

God speed and good luck.

This is definitely my concern, I guess I'm just trying to talk myself into the "outlaw" market on these cars being strong enough to balance it out so I can have my cake and eat it too. Potentially trading money for "units of pleasure" is a good way to look at it...and it's never been too hard to convince me to go to a strip club

That's the question...is it worth risking return to realize a vision? I guess we don't have any of the amazing customs we all love if builders don't risk it, just not sure if I'm that guy on this one yet.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts!