Carrera 3.2 A/C; can it really work?

[MOMO3.2]

I am new to 911's. I have a 1987 Carrera. I spoke with the mechanic that has maintained the car about the A/C because it is not blowing cold. He installed a new condensor or evaporator motor in April for the previous owner and stated that my car needs new hoses because they must have a leak. That is about $1,100.

My question is this: Before I spend what is a lot of $ to me replacing hoses, do these A/C's really work well? I live in So Cal and it gets hot as hell here. Will a properly functioning, stock Carrera A/C blow as cold as any other car?

This car is my daily driver and I cannot climb out of it with the back of my shirt and pants soaked in sweat. Would I be better off buying a cheap old beater car that has good A/C for hot days?

Please do tell. Like I stated, I really can't afford to throw $1,100 at a system that will never cool the car down on a hot 90-100 degree day even if its functioning at its best. And, Yes, I already read the technical article about A/C on this board.

Thank you for your honest responses in advance.

Mike

[masraum]

The stock AC wil work, and fortunately for you you have the '87 with the bigger vents, but only when they are functioning at their peak do they really work as well as another car. You'd probably be best to either get a beater (definitely not my choice) or invest in a Performance Aire underbody condensor.

[stealthn]

Mike, the latest excellence has an article about full conversion to Kuehl (sp?) system, says it's cold.
Someone else posted to get the hoses made up for you at an AC shop...just a thought.
No AC sucks I know, mine is useless. I might try duracool, or just loose the system altogether for the weight savings.......hmmmmm.....what a purdicament..... :|

[Steve W]

Your non-barrier hoses will leak an average of 1 1/2 cans of freon per year. That's the way they are because they have tiny pinholes in the entire length as a saftey thing in case of overpressure. Changing to barrier hoses will eliminate that. When the freon gets low, people complain about how the ac sucks, but actually when it's properly charged, it works pretty good enough for Southern California. Your best bet is to do what I do/did. Install the Performance Aire underdash bowtie modification for $50, which allows a tremendous amount of air to blow at you straight from the blower's plenum, and keep your ac charged yourself with one the hydrocarbon freon substitues. I actually mix my own cocktail of 80% propane, and 20% isobutane and it works better than R-12, but that's a story for another day. Performance Aire says the main problem with the 911's ac is not that it's incapable of producing cold air, but the lack the volume of cold air delivered by the hodgepodge network of archaic hoses and diverters added over the decades behind the dash. The underdash mod takes care of that by tapping straight out the heart of the blower. Imagine, if you sat next to a block of ice in your car, but no air was moving around - you wouldn't feel much. But imagine if volumes of air were blowing over this ice block towards you.

[ruf-porsche]

I have the original hoses and all the original equipment including that monster yorky in the back that sucks the hp when it time to pass on a two lane road, in my 82 SC and it still blowing cold air for me. Of course I'm still using r12.

Like anything else that require a huge amount of funds, I would get a second opinion.

[masraum]

Yep, mine died about a year and a half ago, so I have gone through two Houston summers with no AC (still recovering from IT crash that started prior to 9-11). Luckily I don't have to dress formally or it would be a huge problem.

[rfuerst911sc]

I have a 1983SC and the AC works fine for Central Florida temps and humidity,however the previous owner had swithed to a rotary compressor and I am still running R12.I have removed the center bowtie vent for more airflow and it is fine.The car still has the original weeping hoses but for now I am not changing them,in the future I think that along with a additional condensor in the front left fender will be the way to go.

[Jim Smolka]

What about using R12A? Very similar to R12 except one molecule different.

[fred cook]

If you are willing to invest some personal time and effort, you can replace all the hoses for less than $200.00. Simply remove the hoses one at a time and cut or grind off the "crimps" that hold the end fittings in place. Then, go to your local NAPA auto parts store or an A/C shop and have the ends put on a new piece of barrier hose using new crimps. The process is not hard, but you will get pretty dirty! The advantage of removing and replacing the hoses one at a time is that you won't be as likely to forget just how each hose was attached in the chassis. I replaced all 5 of the hoses on my '80SC for about $150.00 in material. Since you are in California, the cost of the hoses will likely be a little higher.

Good Luck!

Fred Cook

[scottb]

If you're inclined to spend $1,100, call Performance Air in Anaheim. The bottom line is that Porsche 911 a/c is marginal, at best, in the Southern California heat.

The advice above is good. Barrier hoses are a must if you intend to keep cool a/c.

[burton73us]

I called Performance Aire and they told me that the 1986 on cars do not have the bowtie thing. The kit to hop up the A/C is $150. for parts and you need to pull out all the air stuff from the smulgers box just back of the gas tank to put them in and them put that stuff back and recharge the A/C. There price to install and parts is around $500. It is much bigger deal to do than a 1985 back car a/c hop up.

[JR911]

burton73us,

What is a hop up kit? What parts make up the kit?

[burton73us]

The hop up parts are covered in the above postings, They only work for the 85 card and back cars . the 86 cars and forwarded need i different kit that cost more and is harder to put in. REad the old postings above. It will help clear up.

[smoak]

Sorry this is so long... But here goes:

As someone who drives his '88 daily in Florida I FEEL YOUR PAIN. In my opinion the stock system will never feel like an AC system you are used to in other cars. The static rear condensor in the hotest part of the car is just plain DUMB (which has sinced moved from 964 on). The evaporator is outside the interior of the car (again DUMB) and the front condensor in your model year car just doesn't cut it. Next, depending on your freon system (R12 v R134) the leaking hoses can cost you a freakin fortune in lost r12. What does all this add up to=95% of carerra's have pitiful AC. OK.. Now that you know the problems here are the solutions I have found:

1. Buy a "beater" for 2k with "ice cold AC" and drive the P-car when its bearable.

2. If you stay with r12 YOU HAVE to replace the hoses with barrier style hoses or you will go broke trying to keep the system charged. Or if you go with less expensive r134 you will not be able to keep the system "under charged" (22-26 oz seems to be the proper amount) with freon cause it will leak out of the old style hoses.

3. To get it cold in the Cali temps, your car needs more condenser volume. This means you will need to add an under belly condenser from Performance Aire or and fender condenser from Griffiths. These two companies have a corner on the porsche AC market and make the two most often used condenser products. I have seen the Performance Aire condenser and its HUGE and it works. The car I saw it on was lowered too and he has had no problems. The Griffiths goes in the rear fender and has a full time fan, whereas the underbelly is static like your rear condenser now. The advantage of the Griffiths is the car will cool when sitting still in traffic. The disadvantage of the Griffiths is the location (right next to the exhaust). Both of these systems will require additional hoses to get the freon to them and some minor mods to your system. Both of these options tend to get pricey depending on your level of experience installing such mods. Parts and labor for these are going to run you 2k if you cant do it yourself.


4. Your evaporator area needs to be resealed (since its in the front in an area know as the smugglers box). Again this is necessary since the evaporator is outside the cabin and hot air is not going to help the cooling process. Resealing and cleaning your evaporator can actually help a lot. Its fairly simple and obviously cheap.

5. Take off the bowtie vent and get an aftermarket vent to blow the AC towards you instead of at your feet. This vent (right on the bulkhead) is the closest to the evaporator fan and can deliver some air, so for a little over $100 get one. It will help a little.

So there it is. Now you have my dilema and irritation when I am sweating on the way to an appointment. If I could offer one piece of advice, I would not swithch over to r134 unless you have to. Change the hoses and stay with r12. I really think it cools better, no matter what others might say. Its just so expensive to recharge it if the system leaks.

Well, there it is... Carerra AC 101. All this is stuff I have learned by the seat of my pants (sweating I might add). Others may have more technical answers but this is the "AC for Dummies" version I have experienced. Good luck!

[RandalJ]

I live in the Phoenix area, and can attest to the stock A/C system on an '86 Carrera, in temps as high as 116. My bottom line opinion is that the stock system on my model year is adequate up to about 105-110 when the A/C is running at peak efficiency, using R-12.

My car is a dark car, by the way. Prussian blue and a Targa. Probably the worst combination (except for black) in the heat. Lighter cars reflect the heat better. Coupes and Cabs have less window area, but cabs probably have worse top insulation.

Anyway, I bought the car last September (on 9/11 actually). You need A/C here through at least mid-October, so I got a few weeks' experience with the system. I don't remember it being too bad or too good. I was trying to figure out the heat just a month or two later!

Having used the A/C daily since May, and having had a few repairs done on it, I think I know roughly where its limits are.

It was diagnosed with a slowly leaking compressor early in this summer. I decided to have it charged up to determine two things:

1. How good the standard A/C was when fully charged.

2. Whether the leak would be so slow that I could get by on one or two re-charges over the summer, before sinking some bucks into a new compressor.

The good news was that on that 110 degree afternoon when I left the shop, the AC felt good - after sitting in the sun with windows up for 15 minutes. I could even put the AC fan on high speed with no appreciable loss in coldness coming out of the vents, unlike before.

The bad news was that the charge gradually died over 20 days.

I decided to bite the bullet and pay the $900 or so for a new compressor installed and charged with R-12.

The shop, whom I've used before, was going to replace the stock Nippondenso with a Sanden, but ended up using a Motorcraft. Yes, a Motorcraft. Anyone else seen these used on anything but Fords?

Anyway, that was two weeks ago, and the air has been fine ever since. Granted the daytime temps have only been up to the low 100's, but the humidity has been a bit higher, perhaps robbing the condensor heat transfer efficiency somewhat (?).

This is my daily driver, and I park in an asphalt parking lot, in the sun, with a light cover (for dust and sun protection). It is still very hot in the interior when I leave work, but it cools down adequately. So far, so good.

Don't get me wrong. This is not the coldest air I've felt - my wife's Honda Pilot happy pumps out cold, and the cabin is cold within a couple of minutes, even after sitting in 116 deg sun at the mall... My car, well, let's just say that it would be "tolerable" under the same conditions after about 10 minutes.

For the 84-89 Carrerra range, my opinion is that if you live anywhere else in the country, other than Death Valley, and are not getting cold air when fully charged using R-12, then some part of your system is probably not working properly.

[ZCAT3]

If you are willing to get dirty and do some work yourself, do what the others have said and replace the hoses with new barrier hose. I just did this in my 87 911. I pulled all the hoses, boxed them up and shipped them to www.ackits.com. They charged me about $110 parts and labor to make all new hoses. They also gave me all new fittings. They sell a Parker receiver/drier that fits the 911 for $18 - this same unit is sold for over $100 by the Porsche AC specialty shops.

Pulling and replacing the AC lines is a lot of work - probably 3 hours at least to pull them all and maybe twice that to put them back in. This is pure grunt work and there is no easy way to do it. Your Porsche mechanic would charge you his hourly rate for this and it would likely take him 7-8 hours to do it (that would be $800 in labor here in the San Francisco area).

This is the single most important thing you can do to be sure your AC holds a charge. As for new condensers, the Performance Aire underbelly unit is very good - and costs $400, not including the extra hoses you need to plumb it into the system. SOme people have suggested replacing the rear lid condenser with a new parallel flow condenser form ACKits.com. These condensers should be around $100 and are touted to be 30% more efficient than the stock units.

If you merely keep the system stock, but replace the hoses, I think you will be fine in all but the worse days in SoCal. Replacing the rear condenser with the parallel flow unit may be enough to get you over the hump. I have all the bells and whistles sold by Performance Aire in my 86 911 Turbo AC system - and it blows in the mid to low 30s at the bulkhead vent even when the temps are in the 90s. But that was a very expensive project.

[86Carrera]

I have to agree that the stock system on my '86 Coupe gets cold enough when system is charged with R12 and the car is moving. My last charge lasted nearly 2 years. I saw some oil on the engine lid near the condensor from a loose connection and that appeared to be the leak. Two months after recharge A/C blows plenty cold at speed, even in So. Cal.

I would say a good fuctioning system should be kept as is. Good functioning except for frequent freon recharges would mean hose work for me.

One thing I can't understand about the under belly and fender mount upgrades is that the benefit over stock is mainly in bumper to bumper traffic. That kind of driivng makes my engine temps go up and I always shut down the A/C. I would imagine even more temperature increase with some of the aftermarket systems.

If you're not going to use in traffic why make the upgrade? No one seems to talk abut this or are you guys OK with the high engine temps?

Pete
86 Coupe

[MOMO3.2]

Thank you all so much for the replies. It sounds like a 1987 Carrera 3.2 system, functioning at its peak would likely suffice. It gets up to 102-105 on a really hot day where I live and work. An average August Temp is about 97. It does not reach 110 very often, but I will just have to tough it out on those days.

The PO did have a new compressor motor (Nippondenso) installed this past April. The fan seems to blow the way it was designed to in the passenger compartment too. Therefore, I believe the hoses and/or seals leak. And my system has simply lost its charge. I guess the only solution is to have the hoses and seals replaced then give it a new charge of R12--$$$.

I am sure Performance Aire could modify it to make it better than stock. I just cannot spend $2,000-3,000 to have it done.

If anyone else has an opinion, I would like to hear it.

Thank you.

Mike

[ruf-porsche]

Check the fitting that is where 90% of the leaks occur. The other 9% is from hose that are worn due to chaffing against some other part of the car, or are just plain old. and the last 1% is from the compressor because of the seal (face seal)they use.

[caliber60]

The shop charged me $125 to refill the freon. After 2 weeks, the coolness is gone. Now it's time to go for the compressor replacement route. will it solve the problem? Might there be other problems or leaks as well?