Anyone using this brake kit?

[jazzbass]

http://www.boxermotorsports.com/productviewer.asp?ProdID=108

Saw an auction for it on eBay and looked up the website. Looks like a pretty good deal - $800 for 4 puck Al caliper and thicker rotors (31.75mm vs my Carrera's 24mm). If you run wheels bigger than 16" Fuchs, you can get slightly larger diameter rotors, too. Couldn't find any info on how much replacement rotors are....

Wondering if anyone has any exp with this? Search turned up nothing except that someone affiliated with the company - Boxer Motorsports - is a PPBBS member.

[89911]

It doesn't look bad.....but, what kind of pad does it take and what about rotor replacement? Since you can't use your 16" fuchs, your into big red territory. I know these are more expensive, but may be better for the long run. There is more to rotors then diameter and thickness. I just ruined one that was suppose to be better then my stock ones. For the money, they aren't a bad place to start. Just got to get that "Outlaw" logo off them.

[jazzbass]

Originally posted by 89911
Since you can't use your 16" fuchs, your into big red territory.

The text of the add is a little hard to understand - I thought 16" Fuchs were out too. They're not - you just have to order the 11.75" rotors instead of the std 12.1" ones. So you can keep your Fuchs (good) and gain 7.75mm in rotor thickness (also good).

I agree the Outlaw sticker would have to go.

[Bill Verburg]

problem areas[list=1][*]no dust seals[*]the rotors are not particularly stable[*]you still need rear calipers[*]if you use their 298.5mm rotors to retain 15s you are giving up a lot of mass and swept area to the 930 304x32s which also fit fine in 15s. [*]you will still need a 23mm m/c[*]what is the selection of pads?[*]you need spacers, what size? 930calipers can be machined down to fit w/o spacers[/list=1]

[jazzbass]

IMO, the 930 brake upgrade is probably the best for earlier cars, but man - talk about $$$$. I've heard $3k+ for the upgrade. This seemed like it might be a cheaper alternative. I agree there are some major questions though - replacement pads and rotors being at the top of the list.

To be fair, I don't see the 23mm M/C as a problem; you'd need that with any big brake upgrade.

[Bill Verburg]

The 930 calipers can get away w/ the stock 19.05mm or 20.6mm m/c (barely) , the 23s are definitely recommended.

[cstreit]

...and to second Bill, what about the back brakes? They have to be balanced, otherwise you'll move your heat problem to the rear.

[89911]

I've done the 930 brake upgrade. If I was to do it again, I'd lose the fuchs (sorry) and go with the big reds. I'm sure with some creative outsourcing, you could substantially reduce the price of the upgrade. The 930 upgrade single weakest point is the lack of front rotors at a reasonable price. At this time, there are only 2 sources for the fronts and both cost about $450/$550 per pair. Ouch. I'm sure the Big Reds are lower here.

[RallyJon]

With all the high quality aftermarket calipers available for AP, Alcon, Brembo, Stoptech, Wilwood, Hi-Spec, KAD, Bremtek, etc, it shouldn't be too hard to put together a kit for 911s. 32mm rotors are easily accomodated and all you need is mounting adapters for the calipers and the right hats for the rotors. The Outlaw kits are not well regarded--you can do a lot better than that caliper.

I think that Porsche owners are spoiled by having so many options available without leaving the factory parts bin.

[MuffinMan]

I recently did the Big Red brake upgrade on my 77 911S. I weighed the parts along the way, as well. I ended up with a kit from Brembo, purchased from Steve Weiner at Rennsport Systems (awesome guy, btw). The kit was $3600 including 23mm master cylinder and everything else needed.

I posted a bunch of pics (caliper comparison, etc.) along with write-up of sorts at this link:

http://www.gtc-motorsports.com/chat/viewtopic.php?t=342

(the engine is next )

[ks911]

Hello everyone I am Keith Alexander of Boxer Motorsports.

I will try to answer all the questions thus far;

1. The 16in fuchs can be used with the 11.75in X 1.25in kit.
2. The 305mm turbo rotor does have a little more swept area but what creates clearance problems is the caliper. Have never tryed to squeeze the 305mm rotor and big reds under a 15in wheel but would be suprised if they fit.
3. The rotors are extremely stable, most aftermarket manufactors mount there rotors in much the same way, ie: Brembo, VCI, Alcon.
4. You do not need a 23mm master in order to upgrade fronts, piston volume is much the same as factory A calipers.
5. There is a much wider selection of pads than any Porsche caliper has ever enjoyed, you name the pad and I promise they make an HB101 pad for it. Our stock kit comes with Hawk HP+ pads but would be happy to upgrade. One more thing, you can expect the pads to cost 10 to 30% less for the same pad compound plus the pads are twice the size and thickness of the factory pad.
6. There are no spacers? required. We make radial mount adapters for each application.
7. We have done extensive testing on the track and the street, the braking balance is within 5-7% of factory brake bias, with out replacing rear brake setup. Of course you will want to upgrade rear braking at some point since they now become the weakest link, but this is the idea. You can upgrade front brakes and then upgrade the rear brakes as funding and timing premit.
8. As far as dust seals there are a couple differant ideas. First, the calipers have stainless pistons so you don't need seals to keep water out. Second, Alcon, AP, and even Brembo does not use dust seals in their racing calipers because they trap heat, not allowing for air circulation around pistons. Finally, I have had a set on my personal car for over three years on and off the track, five sets of pads and have not needed to replace seals yet.
9. Rotors are much less expensive than the turbo rotor, around 59.00 apiece.


Look, if you want to spend 3,000.00 for a front brake set up, I will be the first one to tell you that the Big Red kit is a very nice set up. I just think that this kit offers a much bigger bang for the buck, and that is what Boxer Motorsports is all about. We don't have fully equiped eighteen wheel racing rigs, we haven't won any national championships, but we do strive to provide quality parts at reasonable costs.

Hope this has anwsered most of the questions.

Thanks,
Keith Alexander
Boxer Motorsports

[89911]

Nice straight up responce to your product. What again is the total price to do just the front for a 911, late eightes model?

[Randy Webb]

Those calipers look like they would flex to me. Who makes them? Note that only the rotos are id'd as Wilwood in the ad. It is a low price.

[Bill Verburg]

Hello Keith,
If you wish to convince anyone of the applicability of your kit post some facts that are meaningfull. Perhaps you have built a better mousetrap, everyone is looking for a lower cost alternative to the usual 930/Brembo set ups. But few are willing to sacrifice durability/performance on the track and street for it. This includes correct bias and low maintainance.

1. The 16in fuchs can be used with the 11.75in X 1.25in kit.

Well of course they can, 11.75" is 298.5mm oem is 287.5mm, you have the advantage of 11mm in diameter and 12mm in width. w/ 16" Fuchs you can use just about any Brembo kit including the 304x32(12x1.25 American)except the Big Red on a 322x32. And even that if you wish to sacrifice a little rotor radius to the machine shop floor. The biggest fitment issue is the axial depth wrt the wheel spokes, spacers or machining of the calipers or wheels are the solutions, though each has it's own issues

2. The 305mm turbo rotor does have a little more swept area but what creates clearance problems is the caliper. Have never tryed to squeeze the 305mm rotor and big reds under a 15in wheel but would be suprised if they fit.

The 304x32 rotor can be used in 15" wheels w/ the 930 calipers in 16" wheels w/ the 993/S4 calipers. The Big Red requires a bigger rotor 322 being the next generally available size, this setup does require 17s

3. The rotors are extremely stable, most aftermarket manufactors mount there rotors in much the same way, ie: Brembo, VCI, Alcon.

The stability of the rotor has nothing to do w/ the mounting system and/or hat. By the way are they floating or fixed? Many of us have experience w/ the cheaper rotors(I am assuming Coleman or Willwood?) and the warping/wear that goes along w/ them. Yes, Brembos and Alcon can warp as well but they do take abuse better and you get the full 304mm of rotor diameter. For a street car it doesn't matter at all

4. You do not need a 23mm master in order to upgrade fronts, piston volume is much the same as factory A calipers.

How big are the pistons used, we are quite capable of doing the math to see if a master cylinder upgrade is required.

5. There is a much wider selection of pads than any Porsche caliper has ever enjoyed, you name the pad and I promise they make an HB101 pad for it. Our stock kit comes with Hawk HP+ pads but would be happy to upgrade. One more thing, you can expect the pads to cost 10 to 30% less for the same pad compound plus the pads are twice the size and thickness of the factory pad.

Pads is pads eh? Pad selection has never been an issue and prices range from $20 to $300 an axle set, generally you get what you pay for..

6. There are no spacers? required. We make radial mount adapters for each application

lets see, 930s bolt on, and the 993/S4 or Big Red need radial mount adapters

7. We have done extensive testing on the track and the street, the braking balance is within 5-7% of factory brake bias, with out replacing rear brake setup. Of course you will want to upgrade rear braking at some point since they now become the weakest link, but this is the idea. You can upgrade front brakes and then upgrade the rear brakes as funding and timing premit

Again how about some hard facts, how big are the pistons? The math is very straighforward. The rear brakes only become an issue when the fronts are wrong

8. As far as dust seals there are a couple differant ideas. First, the calipers have stainless pistons so you don't need seals to keep water out. Second, Alcon, AP, and even Brembo does not use dust seals in their racing calipers because they trap heat, not allowing for air circulation around pistons. Finally, I have had a set on my personal car for over three years on and off the track, five sets of pads and have not needed to replace seals yet.

Since most of us have dual purpose cars seals are important, To my knowledge there is not a single car here that doesn't have them. They also keep dust and debris out of the critical piston bore areas. Stainless and Ti pistons are available and/or standard w/ some Brembo calipers

9. Rotors are much less expensive than the turbo rotor, around 59.00 apiece.

You get what you pay for. I have no problem w/ saving a buck but cheap rotors are not necesarily the best or cheapest, in the long run, rotors for the application. Weekly we get reports of warped, cracked rotors, I will again say that there is no rotor that can take the abuse that the Brembos and Alcons can. Yes, they are expensive

Maybe your kit is fine for some applications, but I see no advantages over a 930/Brembo system other than cost and few advantages accompanied by a raft of negatives over oem 911. If someone is going to depend on those brakes they ought to have some more to go on than your assurances that they are ok.
Look I don't sell these things, I have no axe to grind one way or another, but I do have a reasonable grip on evaluating them and have seen first hand what works and what doesn't. For the same money one can get a Brembo monoblock setup w/ only 1 negative, it is crying for a bigger rotor(not Coleman not Willwood).

[beepbeep]

Originally posted by 89911
$450/$550 per pair. Ouch. I'm sure the Big Reds are lower here.

Naah, they go for around 100$ a piece at type911.co.uk

[ks911]

Mono block kit for the same price?

Performance Product sells Mono Block kits for 80' 911SC for 1495.00 for front kit only. Our kit is 799.00.

Simple math 1495.00
- 799.00
= 696.00


Your right ours are the same price, only that 1500.00 buys a four wheel set up. I am sorry you do not like our products but lets be fair and compare apples to apples.

Hope everybody has a great day,
Keith

[dickster]

Naah, they go for around 100$ a piece at type911.co.uk

thats what i paid

[89911]

Originally posted by dickster
thats what i paid

Cheers,

What rotor are you using? The OE Porsche floating rotor? If you have the VCI hats, you need the floating hardware to use these if you first purchased the nonfloating setup. This along with the issues of using a floating rotor for the street. If it is a direct replacement of the VCI nonfloating setup, I would like to know who makes it, (Brembo)? and an address to contact them. Thanks, Michael.

[dickster]

michael

i have the floating setup.

however they are all oe porsche i believe - here http://www.type-911.co.uk/gp_brakes.htm

email them they're very good.

[beepbeep]

Originally posted by dickster
michael

i have the floating setup.

however they are all oe porsche i believe - here http://www.type-911.co.uk/gp_brakes.htm

email them they're very good.

I just bought a pair of rear ones from type911 for 72 pounds a piece. I think they are Zimmerman discs (not that it makes any difference). You can find them even cheaper from another brittish supplier whoose adress i don't have right now...i'm in Balkans for time being :-)