why does everyone crap on the C4?

rdking · 08-22-2003, 07:45 AM

I have been looking for a used c4 for a few months now... It will be a daily driver and sometimes DE and auto x fun car. However, everyone keeps telling me to get a C2 instead because the handling is "soooo much better" and has no understeer. What I dont understand is that no one complains about the turbo having understeer and that is 4 wheel drive... what gives? Isnt it the same system? Also the audi quattro has a great reputation on the track... isnt the c4 gonna at least perform as well as a quattro? Should I really stay away from a c4 if I want to track the car once in awhile and really "learn to drive"? anyway just wanted your thoughts....

cowtown · 08-22-2003, 08:02 AM

You don't say what year C4 you are looking at, but there's always been a distinction drawn between the 964 C4s and the 993 and later C4s. The 964 C4 series has the worst reputation about understeering. If I remember correctly, the 964 has a different design, involving a computerized clutch rather than a simpler viscous coupling (someone will jump in with the details I'm sure). On the track, you'll also have the added weight working against you, if that matters to you. I guess it depends how competitive you plan on being.

MonkeyBoy · 08-22-2003, 08:03 AM

I always wondered the same thing. I think the understeer is way overblown. You either have oversteer with a C2 or understeer with a C4. Personally, I've never noticed the understeer. I've also never tracked my car. I can say, however, that there were at least 3 incidences over the past 2 winters in which I am sure that the all wheel drive of my car (90 C4) saved me from a potentially serious accident. A lot of people feel that wagging your tail a little is a desireable Porsche trait. I'm not one of them.

s_wilwerding · s_wilwerding's Garage

Yes, the early C4s (the 964s, not 993s or 996s) were the ones with problems. They are still not bad cars, and I would imagine that for a DE once and awhile, a C4 would work just fine. However, their 4WD system is a liability. Maybe not a big one, but a liability. However, if you were to have to drive it in the snow, I'd say the utility of the 4WD would completely offset that liability.

makaio · 08-22-2003, 08:10 AM

I think if you live in an area where you have harsh winters with lots of snow oand or rain/ice, I would go for the C4.

Jim Richards · 08-22-2003, 08:14 AM

just curious...can a 964 C4 suspension/tires/whatever be adjusted for a more neutral ride, or even for a bit of oversteer?

rdking · 08-22-2003, 08:14 AM

Yes you are right I should have specified... actually I am looking at both models. I would prefer a 993 c4s which is the best looking 911 ever imo... however finding one for a decent price has been hard and the 964's are pretty in-expensive at the moment (about 1/2 what the 993 are going for as in 25K vs 50K) so I am REAL tempted. Also for a novice driver isnt the c4 a better choice or atleast a safer choice than a c2?

Then again there is the

964 c4
+ super charger
+ exhaust
+big reds

= still 15K to 20K less than a 993 and should be ALOT of fun!!!! By the way is the 964 c4 lighter than the 993 c4?

ChrisBennet · ChrisBennet's Garage

If you intend to track the car, yes the 964 C4 is not desireable.
A. Extra weight and understeer issues
B. Bleeding brakes requires the Bosch 9288 ("Hammer") tool.
-Chris

304065 · 08-22-2003, 08:23 AM

On the whole snow and ice thing, I've driven a C4 in the snow and rapidly came to the conclusion that AWD is a performance enhancement for dry or rain-covered roads: it does not make it a snow car.

I wouldn't bag on the C4 for a track car, you just have to drive it differently. . . example:

911E: Hold throttle on straight, apply max brake and downshift, turn-in, apex, throttle, upshift.

C4 (or Audi S4): Hold throttle, max brake and downshift, turn-in, throttle, power understeer through apex, upshift.

The additional accelerative traction can be used much earlier in the sequence to get the car going faster. I know that theoretically that doesn't make sense, friction circle, right, and if you are cornering at max g there is no additional traction available for acceleration, but it seemed to work when I tried it.

As far as the car being heavy, you could say the same thing about the C2, but they were so successful in F they got bumped to E.

motion · 08-22-2003, 08:31 AM

I'm not sure about the 964, but the 993 system only puts 5% of the power to the front wheels. Hell, I can't even tell my car has 4WD.

mwbaum · mwbaum's Garage

Isnt that 5% increased when the car senses loss of traction in the rear??

Jump2xs · 08-22-2003, 08:44 AM

I'm not positive about the 964, but in general, I believe the 964 C4's have a set amount of torque that is always being sent to the front wheels, I think it's like 40% front, 60% rear--hence your going to get more understeer than 2wd

The 993 C4, uses an entirely different system which depends on wheel rotation speed to determine how much torque goes to the front wheels. Under full traction conditions the torque split is 5% front 95% rear. If the rear tires are slipping relative to the fronts then more torque is sent to the front axel, to a maximum of 40% front, 60% rear. This system does not control each wheel like the Audi quattro (S4 is my daily) it controls only front to rear bias.
The 993 C4 generaly feels like a RWD car.

This is generaly what happens at the limit.
When you power through a corner hard, the tail will drift out smooth and predictable.....this will transition to a 4 wheel drift as the front wheels get more torque. It all works seamlessly and natural. I have never noticed much understeer in my 993, 4 wheel slides, yes, but never plowing.
It still doesn't let you forget that your driving a 911 with all that weight in the back but it sure does smooth the sharp corners.

MonkeyBoy · 08:57 AM

31% front
69% rear in a 964.

See this link for a great description of the 964 AWD system

rdking · 08-22-2003, 08:58 AM

anyone out there track their 964 c4... if so how was it? Any reliability problems under track exposure? Also what is the hammer system? why do you have to bleed the brakes with it? If you upgrade to big reds do you still need this system? Sorry if this is a dumb question... i have never heard of this... thanks

TMH · 08-22-2003, 08:59 AM

I've never tracked my 964 C4, but I've also NEVER had an issue with the 'dreaded' understeer. Having felt the control that the AWD gives me on the road, I have come to the conclusion that it is the only Porsche I would consider as a year-round daily driver, and our weather doesn't even get that bad (some heavy rain sometimes, no snow). I have not driven a 993 C4, but assume that it would provide the same level of road control.

I think that driving a 2wd 911 might be a little scary on wet roads, especially after reading the following:

Link

I think that it was a combination of driver error and road conditions, but the comments made by others about 911 'issues' on wet roads have really made me think, and enjoy my C4 all that much more.

Tom

ChrisBennet · ChrisBennet's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by rdking
anyone out there track their 964 c4... if so how was it? Any reliability problems under track exposure? Also what is the hammer system? why do you have to bleed the brakes with it? If you upgrade to big reds do you still need this system? Sorry if this is a dumb question... i have never heard of this... thanks

The 924 C4 ABS system needs to be cycled to bleed the system (AFIK). The Bosch hammer runs over $3000 if you can find one.
-Chris

TMH · 08-22-2003, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rdking
anyone out there track their 964 c4... if so how was it? Any reliability problems under track exposure? Also what is the hammer system? why do you have to bleed the brakes with it? If you upgrade to big reds do you still need this system? Sorry if this is a dumb question... i have never heard of this... thanks

The brake system on a (early?) 964 C4 is a very high pressure system (and I believe is interconnected with the AWD system). Requires a special procedure for bleeding, I think. The Hammer is a Bosch diagnostic tool, which I believe is used to re-set the error codes from the DME after doing any brake work where the hydraulic lines were opened. No different if using big reds.

Edit: And you don't need to buy one, you would just have to use a shop that has one to either do your brake work for you, or reset the DME errors after any applicable brake work you do yourself.

Tom

fig911 · 08-22-2003, 10:52 AM

I already mentioned this once on the board, but there is a 1996 C4S for sale at an independent lot by my house. I think it is still there. They were asking $39,995. Dark blue with about 65K miles. I would really like to test drive it for someone

I have no conection to the car, car lot or anything else related to it...just want a reason to test drive it

caliber60 · 08-22-2003, 11:38 AM

C4 before 1994 has electronic 4-wheels drive system like the 959. Don't even thinking about replacment if anything goes wrong. After 1995, C4 has mechanical 4-wheel drive system again.

sasaki · 08-22-2003, 12:31 PM

Go drive both and see which one is the one for you. I have a 89' C4 and its been nothing but

on my face since she came home. I would consider looking at a turbo if its for street use.