The funniest thing about these posts is that anyone can get emotionally involved. I bet I'll never see that WRX (if it was a WRX) again or the Vette or the Targa. It was a fun drive to the summit and back. I had an absolute hoot for 45 minutes.

I wouldn't trade those minutes now for new GT3. Dumb as that sounds, I wouldn't.

I love my car and get my tail spanked on a regular basis @ track days, by M3s, Vettes, any number of other Porsches and a Miata or two, driven by the right folks. Hell a Mini Cooper can be a real challenge on a bad day.

oxymoron of the day
 

I suppose it is good to downplay the SC's superiority, so they don't know what hit 'em. :)

Jürgen, SCWDP chapter of West Tennessee :)

Embs--I'm not being critical so please don't take it that way--I've got the same setup as you--3.6 SC targa. I'll just think twice when I come up against one of these cars on the strip. I'll have to lower my expectations cuz I thought I would be able to hang with them. What's Protomotives's phone # again?.....

My wrx is fast but not fast enough to take an old 911 with a bigger engine shoe-horned in. The rex has around 12-14lbs of boost stock and from what I have heard if you crank that over 16 you'll blow number 3 since the turbo is right on top of it and causes too much heat on that cylinder. So unless it's really modified they can't be boosted too much.

With all this talk I just had go look up the specs on the current WRX. A buddy of mine has one and last track day he mentioned that, "it's not really a race car like a 911". I just took that as a little car envy and with a grain of salt. I also noticed he avoided our run group like the plague. I just figured he either didn't want to or couldn't play with the "basic" 20 year old 911s.

2003 Impreza WRX:
215 HP @ 6k rpm
Torque 217 @ 4k rpm
3085 pounds

My '79 SC
est. 205hp @ 7K rpm
2300 pounds
and a set of gears that will embarrass a WRX between 40mph and 140mph.


A stock SC gear set, 300 hp stuffed into a 2600 pound 911 should run circles around a WRX, even the STi 300 hp version @ 3263 pounds. If it won't something is clearly wrong with the 911.

Please note I did mention circles. A 915's 1st gear, the box and the clutch was never designed for drag racing.

I do believe in the power to weight ratio thing. The 3.6 in my 2465 lbs Targa makes my 3032lbs 300HP C4 feel slow in comparison. That's of course only a butt dyno measurement. Same power but 600 lbs more weight.

Problem is that I get so exited in those little street drags that I tend to forget to shift and redline comes sooo fast. As Moses said, in 1st you can't get your food all the way to the metal before it hits. And second is not much better....

ingo

HAAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH! GOOD ONE!:D ;)

Last time I was at Thunderhill with my '88 Carrera was with NASA in one of the "intermediate" run groups. There was an 18 year old kid in a Ford SVT Contour (FWD sedan with ~220 HP) who was constantly in front of me. I'd stay with him in corners and could never get around him on the straights. He was a really good driver who knew his car, and he was using the safe understeer to its limits. On the other hand, I was (am) a newish track driver whose main goal is to have some fun and not wad up my car.

In the pits, I walked over to talk to the kid and look at his car, and he said "why didn't you ever blow past me? I was pulling over in the straights to let you by!" He thought I'd come over to yell at him, not shoot the breeze. He was totally surprised to hear that my Carrera just didn't have the beans to zip past. Another, better driver would have taken him in a turn and walked away, but I couldn't.

Anyway, my point is that your WRX friend not wanting to play with the 911s doesn't have anything to do with the cars' respective mechanical abilities. There are a lot of preconceptions about Porsches out there (which we do everything we can to nurture :)). I'm still saying that the WRX is a fast car and is going to give any NA 911 made a good run for its money.

---------------
EDIT: Okay, that was quite rambling and confusing. Here's my point: WRXs are fast cars, driven by people who believe that Porsches are faster.

But with average drivers at the wheel, a lot of Porsches are not faster than WRXs, and there's just no getting around it. You can argue that we're all above average, and that's why we can all spank WRXs, or you can be realistic and realize that we are driving old cars that aren't warp speed anymore.

We still look cooler, but technology marches on. :)
----------------

One more time. I agree with rdane...a lightened 911 with 3.6 should CLOBBER a WRX in every category, including straight line. You guys are bowing humbly to cars that are not the equal of a Porsche 911.

I also agree with what I think Colin has said. Namely that for many motorists, your Porsche wins unless you race somebody and lose. So, if you want to be King of the Road to most motorists, just don't race.

2003 Impreza WRX owned by typical performance-minded enthusiast:
260-300 HP
260-300 lb-ft
It's unbelievably cheap and easy to add power to a WRX. There may be some naive WRX owners who think their bone-stock cars are the fastest thing around (kinda like Boxster owners), but the typical punk who pulls up on you on the highway is probably running higher boost, a bigger turbo, and certainly a custom mapped ECU.

"why didn't you ever blow past me? I was pulling over in the straights to let you by!"

Too funny. We had a gomer in an old, smoking, BMW 2002 that would pull over in every passing zone, he just never let off the peddle. There were cars there that "blew" past him. None of the older 911s were in that group though. We passed him on the long straight. Lots of capable cars out there. A lot fewer capable drivers.

A WRX is a nice car. I suspect my suspension and tires are a lot better than a stock set up on a WRX. I have not dissed the WRX, just not impressd by one. The actual difference in a 200hp 2300# car and a 225hp 3100# car is hardly going to be noticable on the track unless you are a skilled driver. The 2300# will be faster every where, hard to take advantage of that fact as a beginning driver. ( I am one BTW) Make the suspension set up a lot better on the 2300# car, add some driver skills and lights should be going on.

You can buy a darn nice 911 for 25K and an even better one for $30K. Any number of older 911s currently in that price range will walk away from a either factory WRXs in 225 or 300HP versions. Trick is being able to actually use that 300hp.

Off the track I can't drive my crew cab pickup to the limit let alone a Mini Cooper or my 911. While I would like to have a 500hp 911 everytime I track my car there are so few cars on the street that can a run away from me there without the risk of loosing the car and your license why stress about more HP?

300 hp and a light car, set up right, should do just about anything a person can ask, including loosing your driving license ;)

Jack Olsen mentioned something about driving against 500 hp cars in the OTC. I think he still has 260HP, 3.6 and a light car....he seems to have done "OK" so far in that set up. And whipped a few 500 HP cars while doing it.

Good points all, but I can't get over the fact that you guys are talking about 911s modified on an extreme scale. Yet you make the assumption that your "opponent" hasn't done even the most basic tuning.

Why not just assume that the guy in the other car can't drive, or has a medical condition preventing more than half-throttle accelleration? Then you can win ALL your races. :D

I think Dane and Superman pretty much answer the question here. I can't see how any of these cars can blow away a 911 - even with the slightest suspension and lightweight modifications -not in the long run at least. With all the AWD gear on a WRX, the weight to transfer fore and aft, etc, I would figure it would bog in the corners more than slide as might a 911, even as a WRX is meant to "slide." BMWs and Cobras I'd be more worried about. Corvettes even more so.

In general, I don't know. Don't really care, either. 911s are much nicer than buy-me-now-dispose-of-me-later WRXs, Beemers, Mustangs and Corvettes. In the cool category, a 911 is the 800-pound gorilla compared to run of the mill hot-for-today automobilia. Yes, something has to be said for the aforementioned cars, but few are as engineered for performance driving as the 911. The BMW might be the closest, or the Corvette. But a Mustang is a Fairmont in pony car clothing, and a WRX is an economy car in reality. The 911 is a 911, hands down.

This is particularly true of the older models, like pre 90s. For twenty-year-old cars and older to still be competitive against today's new-new car is quite remarkable.

I wouldn't lose sleep about it. I'd worry more about Arnold becoming governor; or Ariana, who might take away all our fun car toys in general. In the meantime, if you really want to trounce competition, by a Formula Atlantic.

"Good points all, but I can't get over the fact that you guys are talking about 911s modified on an extreme scale."

Geeeezzzzzzuuuuuusssssssssss!

Adding a set of SSIs, a very moderate set of cams and taking out my back seat is extreme? My gear box is so similar to the older European gear sets it is hardly worth mentioning.

I smoked the WRX from 60 to 110 and I let him go first! And I bet I was 20 years older than the driver of the WRX! What else should I give 'um?

My car will be 25 years old soon. This conversation reminds me of the old bull and the new bull standing on the hilll looking at a herd of cows. The young bull says...... well, if you haven't heard it you should have.

My point is short of $50K you'd be hard pressed to come up with a car that will keep up with a Carrera that has a little tweaking. Let alone a light 911 with a good 3.6, done right. If even a gomer like me can tweak a old 911 into a car that ISUSUHODAKASUBARRO can't keep up with for our less than 25K$, then we have decent cars.

Even if some of us could use a good tuneup ;)

Screw this I am going to buy a WRX dump 30K into it and then hunt you laggers down for some pink slip drag racing !

Oh, sorry--thought you were a member of the lightweight 3.6 brigade. :)
A little tweaking? A $22k WRX + $28k of work will do a lot more than keep up... {argh, stop. Must. Not. Bench race!} :D

These aren't heavily modded cars rally, putting a 3.6 into an early car is the equivalent of taking a base model mustang and dropping in a cobra 4.6 into it. Heavily modded would be running around with a pair of garrets next to the motor boosting over 700hp to the wheels. These are lightweight sports cars with the engineering intent of going fast and handling very well, the AC sucks, the heating is ok, and radio could be better so obviously comfort wasn't top priority. The wrx gives a little of everything for a very reasonable price.

BTW, i thought the wrx with a few moderate options was like 30k at msrp?

The STi is 30K msrp...I just wanted the best WRX and figured another 30K would make it a decent car ;) 1000 hp and 1800lbs so I should keep up with a GT3 in the straights. :LMAO:

Another thought. We're not talking about 993TT versus (place econobox model name here). We're not talking about 996 versus (place econobox model name here). We're still comparing new factory hotrods with twenty year-old Porsches. (smiley face goes here) And we're not even finding that the new factory hotrod stacks up in any sort of dominant way. Against Porsche engineering that is two or three (automotive) generations old.

I personally am surprised the older cars weren't faster than they actually are - nowadays manufacturers have to deal with all sorts of issues. Between emissions controls, safety restrictions, noise restrictions, and whiny mass market consumers, I think the new cars are doing pretty well! :D

Care to make that "old" comparison with the first 1976 930s?

234 HP
246 of Torgue.
Weight 2635#
156 mph top end.

How does a WRX stack up to that, turbo to turbo? Truth is it doesn't. Add a few modern upgrades to a '76 Turbo it is still, Super car catagory.

I suspect Ferry Porsche would loved the WRX but a super car it aint, even for 24K.

2003 Impreza WRX:
215 HP @ 6k rpm
Torque 217 @ 4k rpm
3085 pounds

Now that I have done a little research I am beginning to feel sorry for anyone that has to drive a WRX. ;)

last friday I was walking along in Burlingame California.

A red Ferrari 360 Modena spider pulls up, it was making that sweet hi-pitch exhaust noise, and everybody turns to look at the car. Sex on wheels came to my mind.

Parked on the same block, is an equally red Porsche 911 with a huge turbo tail. It couldn't get a first glance from most people on the street. The Porsche sure got out-classed on that one.

To the discussion at hand, there are some issues that nobody talked about yet:

1. final drive gearing(s) affect acceleration, don't they?
2. Power to weight ratio ... hm, you better take the weight(s) of the drivers into consideration too. Well, unless you plan on remote controlling your vehicle from the sidewalk.

Cheers.

Those WRX's looks like crap/generic...if I wanted a cheap fast car, I would just go get myself one of those 15th anniversary RX-7 and dust most cars thats well over 100K.

I just had a great game of cat and mouse with a Ferrari 550, a WRX and my '88 3.6 yesterday. Up to 60, it was even, up to 80-90, the WRX dopped behind and it was me and the 550. Above 90, the 550 just walked away like I was standing there. That thing kept accelerating at an unbelievable rate. I was happy to hang in here that long. The 911 and the WRX were more nimble weaving in and out through the slower traffic at the slower speeds.

All I know is redline in third comes real fast and I'm at 120 mph. Redline in 4th is just scarry fast. The 915 is what balks our 20 year old cars, even with a 3.6 or 3.8. Aside from the balking of the 915, gearing makes up for so much. On BB3, with Scruffy's short gear box and well built 2.7, Tyson was able to keep up faily well at my lower RPMs but I would pull away as he ran out of gearing and my motor was kickin in.

Krikey, I thought I had a fragile ego!

Some interesting insecurities on display in this thread. Apples and oranges, folks. WRXs are not 911s. They are a Japanese shopping trolley, seat four/five and have four doors or a hatch. They are cheap and they are two or three automotive geneations ahead of old Porsches. They are also bred around rally, not asplhalt performance.

Straight out of the box, they will go faster than old NA Porsches. Theres just no arguing this. If the old Porsches are hot rod 3.6s, modded this and that, well hey- its just an internet p1ssing contest. Try powering your bespoilered, lowered polished Carrera up a rutted forest track sometime.

BTW, it does take some commitment to get a WRX away quickly. The duel impediments of AWD grip and turbo lag mean the that you basically have to put 5k on the dial and step off the clutch. They actually go faster on slightly slippery suface which allows some AWD slip so the engine can overcome the grip. (Unlike the Mitsu Evos and the STii, which have the power to light up all four wheels.)

A valid critism of the WRX would be that, unlike the evil pedulum of the 911, it doesnt take a lot of driver skill to get close to the best out of a AWD WRX, under amost any road conditions. ofcourse extrcting that last xx% is where the skill is. The 911 as we all know requires that you learn to drive it or it will bite back.

However, the WRX remains probably the best value performance cars on the planet. "Car of the Decade" as voted by most credible car mag in the UK in 2000. They are the Pokemon/PS2 of performance cars, but they are here to stay.

Stuart 87 Carrera

Wasn't the original thread about a M3? As for the WRX, I think its a pretty cool little car for under 25K. As for a comparison, WRX rally car, 911 road. As for acceleration most new cars that are hopped up from the factory have great bottom end to about 70 and then they fizzle out.

An m3 from at speed acceleration should be pretty impressive as its weight shouldn't effect it all that much. 300 plus is pretty fast once at speed, whether its a BMW; Porsche; Nissan, or a Kia. The weight advantage won't matter in a top end drag race, gearing, aerodynamics and horsepower will.

But that's why the 911 is superior. Mastering it takes skill that doesn't come "out of the box."

As for biting back, I refer to my first sentence...

I have a wrx and a 77 coupe with a 3.0. The wrx might have beaten the 2.7 but I don't think it can beat the 3.0 with the lower gears I put in.
Don't get me wrong, I love my wrx. It's a really fun car and I have driven the hell out of it. I'm not sure if those specs someone posted a few posts back are right but for my my02 it has 227hp and 215lbs while weighing around 3000 to 3050. I found out that there was a tsb to get the clutch replaced for chattering a few weeks ago so I figured I have nothing to lose by killing the old one. So I tried launching it around 5k and it will light up the r compounds, and yes that was a 4 wheel spin. The car is pretty fun to drive and very forgiving so even a novice can drive it pretty well. If you feel the car starting to drift you just give it more gas and it pulls itself out of the turns like you meant to do that.
I have a few friends that have s2000's and I pull them easily until we hit 3rd gear. Then they blow by. I guess the wrx is geared for more of an offroad thing.
But again, this car will NOT beat my 911. The suspension is designed for different reasons, the thing is heavier, and has no nostalgic value. In 20 years it will be hard to find one still on the road. If anyone thinks a wrx is better I'll be the first to trade you mine for your nice classic 911.

How about weight loss equaling more horsepower?
 

What is the ratio of weight loss to horsepower? Isn't it for every 100 lbs lost ten horsepower is gained? In short, if a stock SC with a 3.0, SSIs and adjusted fuel mixture making 200 hp loses 200 lbs, doesn't it have the effect of increasing the engine's output to 220 horsepower?

I'm not sure if this is true, but if pure mathematics are involved, I can see where a 220 hp SC at 2,300 or (better yet) 2,200 pounds would annihilate any car with equal horsepower and 1,000 pounds more. Given that, a WRX would have no chance. Factor in performance gearing and the (really) rather simple modifications one can do to their 911's suspension, and the corners would be much to the advantage to the 911, even as the WRX has AWD.

A 2.7 vs a WRX? I'd shiver a bit if I were the WRX. A 3.0? I don't think I'd try with much heart -- again, if I were the WRX.

WRX STi is a hell of a car and the most bang for the buck you're going to find these days. My brother in law just came back from a driving school for Subaru employees. He said that they had some "real" (whether WRC or not, I'm not sure) drivers and that the car is the real thing. I've already run across one with a different exhaust, turbo pop off. chip and some other bits. It's very very quick.
Now as far as a BMW goes, I also own a 2001 M Roadster with the S54 engine in it. Tuned as is it's making about 335 hp. I'm looking for more but it more than gave a good accounting of itself the other day to a ZO6 Corvette which tried to jump me at a light. (Wise old fart like me did have the good sense to be in the inside lane of a left hand turn stop light.;) He thought he had me covered but didn't blow by me like he thought he would. It was kind of funny. We didn't go much past 75 mph (because I needed to make another left turn) at which it was a neck and neck kind of run. I don't condone street racing even though in my sordid youth I did my fair share and once had the court documents to prove so. But that's over 25 years ago and a lot has changed. Quite frankly I don't have those testosterone levels anymore and frankly just don't get too exited by those with high levels of it. Besides, age and treachery always makes up for youth and enthusiam.
Then again, I've owned bikes that will scorch the paint off most street cars to 100mph and beyond if you have the cajones.
Unless you are in the low 10's in the quarter, your behind would be mine.

Regards to all,

Tom

Geez, this again....

Since it started with straight line acceleration between a 911 and an M3, can't we just all agree that (as a proxy for accelerative ability) power to weight is in the 3.6 911's favour? I think outright power and aerodynamics only come into it at much higher speeds...

And the WRX? There is too much misinformation. A standard WRX is a good car - handles well (but compromised to some extent by "safe" understeer etc), reasonable power, average looks.

A WRX STi of any type is a completely different animal. They all have 280-300hp (is the new 2.5 litre STI even available in the US yet?), close gearing, more performance oriented suspension, etc. I can't recall a SINGLE article I've read (and I am a magazine whore from way back) where the STI didn't compare reasonably favourably to the competition, especially with price as part of the equation. In particular, although the Subaru sometimes loses out on the track, it wins on the road (twisty roads). It definitely wins in the wet.


A regular WRX can be modded to STI level of power and suspension for relatively low levels of cash. You miss out on the close gearing, brakes and any extra electronic trickery...

So what am I saying? I would expect most unmodified 911s to be competitive with an unmodified WRX in a straight line. Power/weight is similar. rdane benefits from better gearing, power and weight than standard... thus he has quicker acceleration.

The only two data points on WRX's through corners here are from Jim (Superman) who said a standard one is crap at autocross (probably true) and stuart(j) who thinks they are fast on the track as well as easy to drive. Also probably true, especially if lightly modified.

No-one is making you buy one. However, since lots of you guys start from the standpoint of "my car will kick a WRX's ass" then don't trumpet it if you do and don't come crying to mommy if you don't.

Cam

Heres some hard data. I just checked some official times. Two cars, same driver, same track.

The pictured Rex is absolutely unmodified bar an aggresive wheel alignment, and is not an STi. Pictured on the 2000 Grand Prix Pally, Winton Raceway, Victoria. One hot timed lap, no practice, not even my car. 1m.46.83. I have gone quicker in my own Rex at that track, low 45s, but cant give an official timed result, offhand.

My 3.2 Carrera at a club event at Winton June this year, best time 1m.46.86. Best lap all day. A basically standard car, not lightened, rebuilt Bilstein suspension, lowered, sport muffler. Its taken me two years to get to that, and thats driving the ring out of the old b1tch.

cheers

stuart 87 carrerahttp://www.imagestation.com/picture/...f/fd3ae726.jpg

Stuart, DAMN you look pretty in that black WRX. It really is your colour.

Geeez Moses, see what you started!

It was dk blue. Know whats funny- did the hot lap with the air con turned on.......Luckily the clever people at Subaru fit a clutch that disengages the compressor under WOT.

PS- That corner look familar to you? No? Try turning your computer around backwards. What about now? :)))

stuart

StuartJ, http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/kao2.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/kao7.gif

WRX STi's are here in the US and readily available. Most dealers are popping a premium on them and that's where you draw the line because no matter what it is it's still a throw away Japanese car that will be outdated in 6 months.

Tom

PS: I do like them, however!;)

Haha - a premium. Remember the premium on the BMW Z08 or whatever it was called.

Stuart - that is really interesting. Is Winton a twisty or hp type track?