Engine Drop - what did I learn
 

Like many on the board, winter is coming so its time to drop the engine & "look forward" to all the outstanding things to fix :)

With help from 2 other friends, it was quite an uneventful drop until after the engine is sitting on the dolly.

The designed-for-Porsche engine stand yolk doesn't fit because of the "cross pipe" that connects the exhaust headers. When I tried to disconnect the turbo from the headers last time, we ended up torching / dremeling for hours. So we ended up mounting the engine using the universal yolk, remove the headers (which takes all 10 min :() then transfer the engine to the proper yolk again.

Moral of the story - you may want to remove the headers first prior to dropping your engine.

Just to add to your thread. For the Carrera's (84-89) the Bentley manual gives perfect step by step instructions, with pictures, for the engine drop. I followed the instructions and everything went just as outlined in the manual. Nothing was missed. While Wayne's 101 projects has an engine drop section, it is for the SC, and to be honest is virtually worthless for dropping the engine on the Carrera.

I also use Wayne's 101 project as the primary source of info, as there is no Bentley for the turbo, and modify the procedure from there.

Main difference was remove the intercooler, airfilter first from the top. And we took the tranny out then split it from the engine.

Hi Patrick and Kurt,

When one drops the engine, why does it seem that no one removes the heavy muffler prior to the drop? Both Wayne and other sources seem to deal with the muffler still attached.

Advantages to removing muffler first:
1. Less weight on the total engine when dropping.
2. Less chance of damaging the muffler.

Anything else to remove prior to the drop?

I've done a drop with and without removing the muffler. To be honest the weight of the muffler is not that big of a deal and leaving it on does not upset the balance point when dropping the engine/tranny. In addition, I really don't see how you could damage the muffler by leaving it in place. I also find it a useful handhold when manuvering the engine during dropping and lifting.

Lost count of engine drops the NOVA group has done on everything from 60s to late models. We never remove the muffler pre-drop, and I can't see any value in doing it.

On a turbo, its also even more awkard to try to detach the turbo from the muffler / header while its in the car. For the weight-savings, I'd wait till its out of the car.

I have a 70T. My experience was also based on Waynes SC guide. Which if my memory serves me correctly - leaves the transmission in place on the car. I don't know how anyone can get that TO bearing to let go while in the car but I really doubt it could be re-installed after the motor was put back in. My $.02 worth on lessons learned. No, I never considered NOT taking the engine out without the transmission, but I know really well, I never Will.

Ron, I'm with you...
Sounds like its more a question for Wayne - Why does 101 Project suggest to take the engine out with the tranny still in the car?

Seems that most take the tranny out with the engine and it certainly seems a lot easier to me doing it this way than trying to separate the tranny from the engine while its in the car.

Ron and Patrick,

Sorry to rain on your thread, but the question I asked was not the transmission, but the muffler. Everyone knows that you should remove the transmission along with the engine or vice versa, but the muffler sits out there, waiting to be dinged. It is so easy to take it off, as anyone who does Driver's Ed and drives to the tack knows.

Also, if you remove the muffler frist, the engine will clear the rear valence more easily, etc.

Sorry for the confusing question.

Andras what you say about taking the muffler off first making it easier to clear the rear valance makes absolutely no sense. The muffler sits below the engine tray and doesn't get in the way of anything during an engine drop. As for weight, what you are talking about at most is 30lbs, so it really makes no difference. Now if you like taking the muffler off first, have at it. Really nothing to get stirred up about. Now some people do drop and engine minus the tranny. I suppose if you have a lift and a jack the will extend up to the engine it is not that big of a deal. But when you are using floor jacks dropping the engine and tranny as a combo is just much easier to do. Especially when it comes time to reinstall things.

As Kurt said, I didn't see much benefit either other than some small weight savings (ok with the turbo maybe 50lbs?).

But its a PITA to take it off while it is in the car, particularly with the turbo. So, I'd rather wait till engine's out then remove it.

Re: Engine Drop - what did I learn
 

I use my air grinder to grind some yoke metal away and then spray it with some grey paint. Clears the exhaust fine now and you'd never know it was modified.
-Chris

I've installed/removed probably 50 VW engines and never had to pull the tranny. You're just asking for trouble with the CV joint bolts (cross-threading and what not) by removing it all. I dropped my engine last month (first time for a 911) with the tranny left as is and it was truely a piece of cake. So, I definitely do not agree with the comment:

"Everyone knows that you should remove the transmission along with the engine"

My .02 worth...

That is a LOT better than learning -- too late -- that you are not able to bench press 450 lbs.....

UTKarmann_Ghia, Have you ever pulled a 2.2 from a '70 911T and left the transmission in place? If so, I need to talk with you. And Andras didn't mean to break into your post, I started reading at the top and noticed the original question;" Engine drop - What did I learn". This was why I added my comment. I didn't remove my muffler either.

rbroman@cox.net

You're all correct, including Andras. As he said, if you lower an SC engine, straight down, with the muffler attached, the muffler will scrape the rear valence. Usually this is avoided because the tranny-end is removed last, after tilting the engine down.

The 2.2's are a different beast. The motor and trans can only be seperated after rotating the throwout bearing off the fork. That requires you to look with a flashlight into the teeny window on the front of the bellhousing, then reach in there with a screwdriver.

Well in less time than it took to discuss the best way to drop the engine I removed the valance and bumper and rolled the engine and tranny out from the car.
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kurt, get some proper lighting in there or you'll get eyestrain.

the exchangers sit nicely on my jack, keeping the engine from tilting side to side. the muffler is a great handle. the lip on the muffler can hang on the rear valance, so be ready for that, and guide it past with a couple of screwdrivers. leave the trans in except on 70-71, and 87 up carreras. way easier, less crap to disconnect means getting done quicker. disconnect the shift coupler in the tunnel, and be careful not to lower the engine too much so you break something. the fan housing just needs to clear the rear body crossmember.

Or learn how to operate yer camera.
:)

LOL, everybody's a critic! Yes the lighting is deceptive. It was just turning dusk when I took the pictures. The garage door is up and was blocking the light from the bank of lights that would have lighted up the back end of the car. I'll try to do better in the future.

In fact it was the same deal with mine. We have to remove the helper spring then the tension on the release folk, rotate it before we can separate the transmission from the engine.

I prefer dropping the engine and tranny together for two reasons: first the tranny generally needs to be cleaned up and second I hate being under the car trying to wrestle the engine back up to the tranny.

To respond to the engine drop and muffler questions, I would have to say no to removing the muffler (it's really handy for wiggling the engine onto the tranny) because I removed my '72 2.4 MFI T motor without the tranny and it was quite easy. The reason for doing so is that Porsche was really fond of hex nuts and while some may disagree I personally dislike them they always seem to get frozen up or strip even when heat or lubricant is applied. The CV joints with all those hex bolts are much more duanting to me than using a mirror to line up a clutch release fork. Just my 0.2 cents worth .... any other opinions?

I second what Kurt states, Most of the time, the tranny is a lump of dirt that needs to be cleaned and it is a good time to fix those leaking seals. Sure the CV's are less than fun to remove, but it is time well spent to have everything cleaned and the leaks fixed.

I dropped mine a couple of weeks back to rebuild the tranny. It was really an easy job. I pulled the angine and tranny as one unit.

One note. I took the transmission mounted throttle bellcrank off during the tranny rebuild and didn't reinstall it before I put the engine/tranny back in. The left semitrailing arm didn't allow enough clearance to reinstall the throttle linkage, so I had to pull the engine out again to get the bell crank on.

I couldn't imagine taking the muffler off, nor did it seem worthwhile to remove the rear bumper or valence.

I didn't have a lift or anything, so I just made up a dolly, lowered the engine down onto it and then I used two floor jacks to raise the car high enough to roll the drivetrain out from under it.

Regards,

Jerry Kroeger

First time I dropped my engine & tranx, they were covered in dirt. Could have grown a nice crop of potatoes on top of the transmission. Yech!

FWIW, air cooled engines [and transmissions] rely on radiation of heat to the surrounding air. A solid layer of muck is a great insulator, resulting in a hot running engine. Clean is goooooood.

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I am looking for a mid-rise lift. The lowest is 26 inches. Is 26 inch enough to drop the engine? What's the minimum height to drop the engine?

Thanks,

What's the best floor jack for lowering the engine. Are those sears motorcycle jacks any good?

Jeff C

I use the Snap-On mid rise lift.. it's 37in without the arm 2x4 spacers.. I haven't tried a drop directly from the lift.. A used price should be about $1,000 - $1,400.. new is around $4,000

If you want to take out the trans to clean it up or for whatever reason, then take it out.

But if you only need the engine out, I really, really, really don't understand taking the trans out with it (unless it's one of few years that it is necessary). It's just extra unnecessary work.

I suppose arguably it is easier to mate the two when they are out of the car, but I haven't found that to be true at all. In fact, I actually find it a little *easier* to mate them when the trans is in the car. Because then it is sitting there stationary. Balance the engine on the jack and the engine had plenty of manueverability to just line it right up. No biggie.

Just my opinion after having done it both ways more times than I care to remember.

"air cooled engines [and transmissions] rely on radiation of heat to the surrounding air."

No. Very, very little of the cooling of the engine is by radiation. The vast majority is by convection, and most of that will be thru the oil cooler (or in a water-cooled engine, thru the "radiator" which is mis-named and should be called a convector.

However, a "solid layer of muck is a great insulator, resulting in a hot running engine" mainly because it inhibits convective heat loss.

I took my muffler off when I did the engine drop just to clear the valance and one more thing I didn't have to do on the floor. I lowered it with 3 floor jacks and had the valance at 31 inches. Rolled right out with no problems.

Randy,
Radiation is the physical process by which heat is transferred from the hot body [engine case] to the air. Convection is the physical process by which heat energy is dissipated in the cooling medium.

Lets not argue semantics - clean engines run cooler than dirty engines.

This applies whether they are air or water cooled, but is particularly true for air cooled engines. I agree that the oil cooler/s do the lion's share of the cooling - our engines are more oil cooled than air cooled. That said, Porsche designers went to a lot of trouble to provide a very high volume of forced cooling air, and went to a lot more trouble designing specific radiating surfaces around the cylinder heads as part of the thermal design of these engines. Remove all that stuff and see how well your engine runs with oil cooling only? I don't think so.

APKhaos, "Radiation is the physical process by which heat is transferred from the hot body [engine case] to the air. Convection is the physical process by which heat energy is dissipated in the cooling medium."

This is completley incorrect. I used to give other people PhDs in this, but if you don't trust me, look it up in an Engineering Heat Transfer text such as Krieth. Your 2nd para. is correct.

Semantics is important. It's how we communicate with other humans. I'm not trying to come down on you - and you have the right general idea. But I am sensitive to this issue, even tho I am no longer paid to correct people about it.

If anybody wants a defn of these two, let me know -- or a defn of nonmutual offensive collateral estoppel for that matter.

but I think the upper barrells.. from the bottom piston ring on up at combustion is the most sensitive to heat..



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An adroit change of topic, Ron...

With the 3.2L PAG put a temp. sensor on for use by the engine computer -- maybe that was the hottests cyl.? Or maybe they just wanted the computer to see an average?

I've also heard that the two cyls. closest to the front run hotter due to lack of cooling as the body blocks the air stream. -- or maybe it's harder to radiate....