Full Disclosure ...Downside to 3.6 Conversions?

Jcon · 10-26-2003, 06:37 AM

I have been looking at a number of ways to get more HP from my SC and after a lot of math the 3.6 conversion seems like the way to go.

Going in I'm planning on Appr. $10,000 plus the proceeds from the sale of my 3.0. This will be a daily driver (Three seasons anyway) with 5-6 DEs per year. Keys attributes need to be Relaibility, Reliability, Daily Drivability and power.

Now that several of you have had your conversions for a couple of years what are the down sides. Can you get good heat. Heat and AC are important to me.

What issues linger that you wish you had known about ahead of time or took considerably more resources (Time and/or Money) than you had anticipated?

Thanks

Jeff C

Mike Feinstein · Mike Feinstein's Garage

Mine goes in next week. Planning on relocating AC condesor to left rear fender and putting an aux oil cooler in the front left fender in place of water bottle. Hope to have cruise, AC, and heat (as well as working guages) when all is finished...although it will be back dated heat with Thom's CF heat tube in place of the blower stuff. I bought a Timmins 3.6 Vram which he had installed in one of his Carrera's prior to my purchase. Got it with all the conversion pieces installed. He calls it a "crate" motor.

I'll be interested in the responses to your post. Our criteria are almost identical.

Moses · 10-26-2003, 06:50 AM

The only way to control costs is to do the work yourself or find somone you trust completely.

My conversion was done by a thief. I have spent a few thousand $'s sorting out his errors. It has been a year since this (mis) adventure started and it's not over yet.

On the upside, the power is remarkable and the 993 motor (from Harald) runs beautifully.

Would I do it again? I honestly don't know. The stress and aggravation have been enormous. I don't think my experience is typical, though. Ingo put his together in a weekend and is running without issue. K9handler had his done by Harald in Germany without incident. Other shops perform with mixed reviews. If you go forward, be careful and do your homework.

Mike Feinstein · Mike Feinstein's Garage

Moses,

Just curious...did you go with a conversion kit, or did you source everything a la carte?

Moses · 10-26-2003, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Feinstein
Moses,

Just curious...did you go with a conversion kit, or did you source everything a la carte?

1997 3.6 V-ram from Harald (imported by Timmins). Timmins conversion kit. Local mechanic destroyed the $1000 DME (no warranty) Local mechanic fabricated custom exhaust at great cost that literally fell apart. Local mechanic failed to tighten/lubricate CV joints that failed after 20 miles. Local mechanic returned car with no working lights or tachometer. New mechanic is currently tracking down severe idle instability problem. (Car dies at stoplights.)

Schuey · 10-26-2003, 07:19 AM

resale value may be a downside...

Jcon · 10-26-2003, 07:32 AM

I think you're right. Although I'm already so upside down with this car I view it as purely a hobby. Like most hobbies I'll never get my money out. I've already hurt resale value and to some degree sale-ability (SP) with upgrades that point to aggressive driving - like the hole in the floor for the substrap bolt and the soon to be installed smart racing sway bars. Although truth be told you'd have a hard time finding any SC that's better maintained.

To you're point though this is a major step. I have struggled with whether to build this car up or sell it in favor of a 993. If I move on an engine swap theres no turning back and no saving the marriage if I do the engine swap and all other necessary changes then ($$$$) then sell at a huge loss and move to a 993.

Anyway That's why I'm asking this question. Keep it coming.

Jeff

k9handler · 10-26-2003, 08:28 AM

As you have explained, once you move forward it's like jumping in with both feet!

Research...make sure you know about all you can, parts needed, labor costs (if you don't do it yourself), electrical issues, tranny issues, etc.

I would suggest going with a mechanic you trust and one who knows what to expect, even Harald will tell you he learns something new from each conversion he does. If you do take it on yoursef, make sure everything is done nice and slow...do it right the first time and ask questions when in doubt.

Would I do it again...HELL YES! Like you my car is a hobby and resale is not a big issue with me, and I love the power and feel I have created in the narrow body 911. Pure Joy!

Jack Olsen · 10-26-2003, 08:44 AM

This month marks the third anniversary of my engine swap. I guess this makes me an early adopter, although there were guys who did it much earlier than me.

I started with a low-mile 3.6 from Harald, with Timmins' kit, and I've tracked it about once a month since then, as well as driving it most days of the week. YMMV, of course, but I haven't had any problems with it at all. To me, this is the promary advantage of this swap. It's hard to imagine a lower-displacement race motor going through three years of hard use with zero teething/tuning issues and zero problems from the day it got dropped in.

(I'll knock on wood, now, and hope my good luck continues.)

The only thing I didn't anticipate, back when I did the swap, was the need (especially at the track) for more than one fender-mounted oil cooler. But that's part of the common wisdom about these swaps now.

My engine has gotten dirtier, since it first started up on October of '03, but that's about it.

It even survived the concrete-wall impact that totalled the body of the car.

Kevin Stewart · 10-26-2003, 09:10 AM

i just took my 3.6 conversion for its first 50 mile trip last night, the 3.0 is not even on the same page, ASK Thrown Hammer how fast it is, any way with heat i would just do thye B&B or ghl with the heat tubes to car back date in other words 3.6 headers with the tubes that connect to the chassis made like a sc bill will chime in and post a picture, go with the timmins kit, timmins will be able to walk you through it when you get lost, you can see my post on 3.6 conversion or others, any questions email me stew09@aol.com Kevin

RallyJon · 10-26-2003, 10:06 AM

Hey, Jeff, if you haven't got a buyer lined up for the motor yet--I'm right down the road.

Might even be able to get a deal on labor if both cars are in the same shop at the same time. Who do you use--Cyntex?

dean · 10-26-2003, 11:21 AM

Downside- not enough power

Kevin Stewart · 10-26-2003, 11:58 AM

I actualy feel that my sc with the 3.6 has the power it should have had when it was new, the 3.0 was always disappointing, Kevin

Randy Webb · 10-26-2003, 12:00 PM

More wt. in rear; maybe resale value -- at least rel. to what you put in, harder to do than a 3.2 etc., more tickets, insurance co. hates you, and risk of power sliding into expensive things greatly increased.

Kevin Stewart · 10-26-2003, 12:04 PM

I dont feel that its that much more effort then a 3.2, how much more weight? when you take off all the heavy stuff like exhaust, maybe 50lbs max i couldnt believe any more, any of you that dought a 3.6 conversion, any of us with one will be glad to have you bite you lip, Kevin

Jcon · 10-26-2003, 12:10 PM

This is excellent...I'm not hearing no go.

Rally - I'm not going to be ready to sell the 3.0 till January or so. I'll certainly let you know. Not having to ship it would be easy.

As for shops I've never tried Cyntex..I use Dougherty. They are always at the track events with a support truck and treat me the same as thier customers in '03 turbos and gt's.

I'm actually only 40 minutes away from Dr. Timmins. I was seriously considering having him do the whole deal. I know everyone likes his kits has anyone used him for the total conversion? I have a demanding job and three young sons. If I did the work myself It would take years. I can't be out of my car that long it's my therapy.

Randy..Great thoughts. One in particular caught my attention - Insurance. What's the deal. Do you have to declare the change, can they decline coverage if you don't any insights?

Jeff

dd74 · 10-26-2003, 12:25 PM

Jcon - unless you're a DIY guy, or have a trusting mechanic, why not just drive the car to Delaware where Dr. Timmons is located (it's either Delaware or Vermont - he's somewhere out that way). How far can it be from PA? Not too far, right?

You'd get it done, I bet, in a little over a day. He says on his website installation takes about 12-15 hours.

Just a thought.

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

I've done 2 big block t/ps, first 3.6 was 9 yrs ago, the second 3.8 this past year. Very happy w/ both wouldn't go back or do it differently either time. Be sure to keep in mind that for satisfying results the whole car will need to be considered and altered according to intended use, this includes but is not limited to engine, trans, suspension, wheels, tires, brakes and supprt systems like cooling.

You can do it in stages to make the cost more palatable, but rememeber you are building a car for you, so resale can not be a consideration at all.

Heat depends very much on the exhaust chosen, SSI heats better than B&B, but B&B is a much better exhaust match for a 3.6 or larger engine.

These swaps when done right are as dependable as factory, and as appropriate for every day use as for track use.

I had my last one done by Steve Timmins and would recommend that you purchase the parts and have the work done at his shop. Just have a flexible schedule, he is a one man operation and this sort of thing is not his day job.

A 3.6 is no heavier than a comparably equipped 3.0., that is not a consideration at all. You will go thru tires at a much faster rate. If you are loking for an economy car I suggest that a Honda might be more to your liking.

As for power I agree with Dean, you get used to it and want more. It is never disappointing though. I will say that I was very bored w/ my stock C3 engine, the first t/p rekindled the love affair.

dd74 · 10-26-2003, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Verburg
...but rememeber you are building a car for you, so resale can not be a consideration at all.

Bill, you speak the truest words of wisdom here. I wholeheartedly agree.

scca_ita · 10-26-2003, 01:43 PM

Bottom line with the conversion is you need about $15K minimum to do it correctly.

Preparing the car for the extra HP - such as suspension and brakes is necessary. Unless you just care about straight line speed and even that suffers unless the suspension is upgraded. Also as noted Wheels and tires could be upgraded , recommend rebuilding CV joints.

I really look at this as a complete transformation and well worth it if all the upgrades work together.