Are big reds big enough?

[Yargk]

I was wondering if there are any reasons to use brakes that are bigger than big reds on a 1979 930. The car is getting a 600 hp 3.6 liter twin turbo installed and eventually will get a coil over suspension as well. I will use the car on the track often with R-compound rubber. I figure I need bigger brakes than stock to handle the extra speed and fit the whole performance package. The plan was to get big reds because they worked fine on a heavier car, the 993 TT. However, cars like the F1 and Ferrari F50 have 14 inch rotors. Don't GT3s nowadays have 13.8 inch rotors and the Carrera GT has a 15 inch rotor. With comparable power to weight ratios does my project need comparable rotor sizes? I'm not looking for ways to spend extra money, in fact big reds are expensive enough already. However, my opinion is that regret might just be the most expensive word in car projects because it means you buy the cheap parts AND the expensive parts when you realize you really should have gotten them in the first place.

Thanks

Edit: specifically I was looking at the 14 inch brembo lightweight brakes using the "floating hat system" as a step up from the big reds.

[Dbelleperc]

I think that the Big Reds are big enough for you car that weights like 2600 pounds wet. When the GT3/TT/CGT are in the 3500-4100 pound range.

[Yargk]

Actually it weighed 2900+ pounds when I had it corner balanced a while ago. However, since then I've lightened the car a little so hopefully it's around 2800 or less.

[ted]

I'd try your stock "turbo brakes" with some Pagid orange pads and front brake cooling ducts. Use a better brake fluid too.

The orange pads work great on the track but need heat so not a good idea on the street. Just change pads for street driving.

They should do fine unless you race at some wicked hard on brakes track?

If you change the front brakes you need to do something to maintain the brake bais.
If you go to the big reds up front are you going to modify your old turbo front brakes for the back? Were you planning on installing a rear brake bais valve or a dual brake master cylinder? Will you current front rims be compatable with the big reds? You better have a big spacer on your front brakes now for those rims to work with the big reds.

I know of 550hp street car like yours that runs the stock brakes with above mods with no brake issues. He is fast, SCCA champion. 1.31 at big Willow yesterday.

[Joe Bob]

Yeah...what he said.....

[Yargk]

Originally posted by ted
If you go to the big reds up front are you going to modify your old turbo front brakes for the back?

Thanks for the information. I did think that the stock brakes would be sufficient for now, at least until my driving skills match the car's performance. I don't need to explore how deep I can dive into corners too much at this point. I was thinking more of what I would be happy with in the long run though. If I got Big reds, they would be on all four corners. The stock brakes are a millimeter or two bigger in the rear, aren't they? So I thought I better have the same size brakes all around. I have 17 inch rims, which I have heard are big enough for big reds. If I went to 14 inch rotors, I believe I would need 18 inch rims. It seems my original plan of living with the stock brakes for a season or two and then switching to all big reds, should work.

Nice red car.

[masraum]

I thought F1 had little tiny brakes, they have little tiny wheels.

[Yargk]

Originally posted by masraum
I thought F1 had little tiny brakes, they have little tiny wheels.

Yep, 13 inch wheels and smaller brakes, though it might be 13 inch rotors and slightly larger wheels, I forget. The point is that they are crazy special carbon units on cars that weigh very very little, so they are not really comparable. I meant the McLaren F1 road car which I think has 14 inch rotors and weighs around 2500 pounds.

[masraum]

nope, 13" wheels, I want to say 10" rotors, but I haven't been able to verify that.

[Bill Verburg]

At that weight and power level you want the 322x32 front w/ Big Red calipers and 322x28 rear w/ the matching S4 calipers. Be sure that the rears are 30/28 as used on 993C4 not 28/28 as used on the 993tt.

You do not want to deal with 930 fronts moved to the back for many reasons.

The 14" evos(and larger) are more for endurance racing, you are not going to do LeMans w/ this car, right?

The cost and weight penalties of the Big Red compared to 930 brakes are minor compared to their additional thermal effectivness.

[Yargk]

Thanks Bill, I was waiting for you to reply, I knew you knew your brakes.

So am I to understand that I should not buy the rear big red brakes that are advertised for my car because they are the 993 tt rear brakes? I understand that 322x28 refers to the diameter and thickness of the rotor, but what does 30/28 refer to? Do you know where I should purchase the proper brakes (front and rear)?

One more question, is there anything better with the Timmons brake kit. He claims...

"We do things a little differently. Our conversion kits use the factory 993 Twin Turbo rotor and hat. Why? Ever try changing rotors on the other "coleman" or "Racers Group" kits? Either they use an after market rotor and gouge you after the fact (I paid $500 for replacement rotors from them), or they attach the 993tt rotor to an adapter plate with a bunch of fasteners. Here's their kit, if you are interested in it I'm happy to sell it to you. I was getting 2-3 track events out of a set of rotors ad finally gave up and designed the Instant-G kit! "

Thanks again

[Speedster94]

hallo
The F1 Cars are something like 1300 Pounds ( 620 Kilogramms ) that is wet AND WITH driver . On the IAA in Frankfurt they had a few on Display some in Pieces so you could see the insides . Incredible Machines and perfection in every millimeter .the BMW was hanging on the Wall and you can see some People to guess the Size .The Steeringwheel is what they use today . The last Picture is a complete Frontsuspension ,the white tubes are for the Display .

harald

[Bill Verburg]

30/28 or 28/28 is the piston size. I would recommend the Race Technology f/r Big Red set that Wayne sells. It is a well engineered kit( from what I have seen). I am somewhat miffed that they won't answer any of my questions though. Maybe we can get some answers from Wayne or his crew?

Steve's kit is also good and does have one minor advantage in that the rotor and hat are stock 993tt so swapping rotors is easier than the RaceTech kit which requires that the non-floating 993tt hat be unbolted and swapped for their floating one. The down side of Steve's kit is that the hub o/s is changed. This is problematic if your front wheels and tires are maxed out and positioned properly w/ the stock hub o/s. So it depends more on your front wheels and tires than anything else.

Another option is to use the Racetech kit in the front and 965 calipers on stock 930 rear rotors in the back. Slightly cheaper is the main advantage here.

[Yargk]

Originally posted by Bill Verburg
30/28 or 28/28 is the piston size. I would recommend the Race Technology f/r Big Red set that Wayne sells. It is a well engineered kit( from what I have seen). I am somewhat miffed that they won't answer any of my questions though. Maybe we can get some answers from Wayne or his crew?

Well engineered big brakes + supporting the board =

What questions did you have for them?

[Bill Verburg]

Are the front calipers oem Porsche? There are versions of the Big Red with smaller hardware used to bolt them together and smaller pistons as well.

Do they use McLaren anti rattle clips? I believe that they do but want to be sure(or the Stoptech bellville versions)

What size rear pistons?

What pad manufacturer? Options?

Goodridge DOT spec lines? I believe yes

oem 993tt rotors front and rear? I believe yes

[Bill Verburg]

Oh one more, these kits retain the stock parking brake?

[Otto]

What's all this hoopla about big brakes? Brakes don't stop the car, tires do! What good is big reds if you have a 155/15 on a 4 1/2 inch rim?

[Yargk]

Originally posted by Otto
What's all this hoopla about big brakes? Brakes don't stop the car, tires do! What good is big reds if you have a 155/15 on a 4 1/2 inch rim?

Who has a 155/15 on a 4 1/2 inch rim?

[tchanson]

Originally posted by Bill Verburg
Are the front calipers oem Porsche? There are versions of the Big Red with smaller hardware used to bolt them together and smaller pistons as well.

Do they use McLaren anti rattle clips? I believe that they do but want to be sure(or the Stoptech bellville versions)

What size rear pistons?

What pad manufacturer? Options?

Goodridge DOT spec lines? I believe yes

oem 993tt rotors front and rear? I believe yes

Oh one more, these kits retain the stock parking brake?

I'm also planning a f/r Big Red project this winter and had sent a similar list of questions (albeit less thorough than Bill's ) to Pelican last month about their BR kit. No response.

My questions, specifically, were (a) are OEM TT rotors used front/back? (b) which rear calipers (and piston size) are supplied and (c) can the parking brake be retained in the Pelican BR kit?

I'd want that information before laying out $3K plus for anyone's kit.

Any input, Wayne?

Thanks.
Tim

[Joe Bob]

Originally posted by Yargk
Who has a 155/15 on a 4 1/2 inch rim?

Just looked....that's the size on my 356C wheels.....they are over in a corner....