Engine Install - 3/4" to go and no more movment

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

OK yall, once again to pick brains. Everything is bolted on (even the one leftover piece we didn't realize we had), good movement of the crank, everything plugged in or waiting for it's mate. Raised back end, moved motor under vehicle, lowered vehicle, easily mated up the top bolts, raised motor slightly and in the bottom two slipped. We have aligned (we think) the clutch throw out bearing and it appears to be in good order. We have raised and lowered the motor, raised the motor at the transmission to give an equal tilt, cussed, prayed, grunted, everything but got drunk (?) and still cannot get closer than about 3/4" to go. (A quick note, it appears the left side/driver's side of the motor is slightly lower than the right side.)

What I am asking for is a list of possible things that have been overlooked or even done wrong. Spent all day raising and lowering. We feel the splines on the Crank and the throw out plate are aligned, but did not use the handy dandy Porsche tool in orde to accomplish this. Any other ideas? I'm partial to getting drunk and trying it, but my partner in this endeavor does not drink.

Thanks,

[Early_S_Man]

David,

Are the engine and transaxle already mated, or was this a drop of the engine alone?

If the engine & trans are together, did you 'stab' the shift rod into the body/tunnel first, before fully raising the engine to level?

[Jess]

David,

I'm 99% sure I've got your solution.

The splines on the transmission are not lining up with the splines on the clutch disk.

Try turning the engine very slightly as you push it in and I think you will find that it slips together.

Jess

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

OK, too much useless information and not enough good.

Noah,

I pulled the motor seperate from the transmission. The transaxel is still intact and attached to the vehicle. There is no contact between the transaxel and the motor in front to back movement.

Motor is not bolted into vehicle, only supported from below by floor jack and the four studs into the transmission. There is about 3/4" of an inch spacing from the motor to the bell housing. The bottom two reference is the bottom two of the four studs that feed through the transmission bell housing towards the front of the vehicle.

Jess,

Thought the splines would be the issue, however aren't we far enough in to enable the splines to pass at least through the first obstacle? I will attempt to rock the motor clockwise counterclockwise and see if that engages the splines. Thanks.

Warren,

I dropped the motor seperate from the transmission. I thought when we raised the motor up that everything slipped in naturally. The studs aligned well and all mated and pushed together rather easily. It has been the final 3/4" we have been fighting all day. The shifter in the tunnel engages and disengages very easily.

Thanks all,

[jabb]

For all the aggrevation you are putting yourself through I would drop the Transmission bolt it to the motor and put everything in as one unit..... Your local autoparts store sells these plastic guides for lining up the clutch looks just like the input shafts on the transmission they are about $6.00 that is what I used to make sure the clutch was alinged properly.

[Early_S_Man]

David,

The issue is probably the engagement of the throwout bearing with the operating arm. Hopefully, you heven't applied enough force to bend/break the arm!

Pull engine apart from transaxle at least 3" ... and visually verify that throwout arm can be rotated by splined shaft fully clockwise from bottomside of transaxle ... and back against side of bellhousing. As engine is pushed back into bellhousing ... be SURE that arm catches the groove in throwout bearing!!! It may take a third set of eyes to watch while one moves engine and the other rotates the splined shaft!

Once the throwout bearing is 'caught' ... if the transaxle is in neutral ... the splines on the input shaft aren't a problem. If they do not mate properly with the disk ... drop the engine, followed by dropping the transaxle ... mate them on the ground or a pallet ... and put the drivetrain back in per the factory service manual method!

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Thanks yall. Do not feel we bent the arm as we are able to move it easily and we did pay some attention to it during the process. We'll try the jiggling once, and then resort to dropping the tranny. Thanks yall.

[Superman]

I think this is a classic example of why the engine and tranny should come out together. With other (non-Porsche) cars I have had plenty of trouble mating tranny input shafts with clutch disks that are attached to a motor. With the 915 tranny you additionally have a release bearing fork to manage. If the fork is mating up properly and not binding, then it is your clutch disk/input shaft lines. Didn't you say you feel they are aligned, but you did not use the special tool? This is likely to be a bad ideal. Those parts (the pilot bearing and clutch disk splines) have to be perfectly centered, or you will not be successful. Warren once told if a homemade version of the special tool that you can fabricate. It will not work if you 'eyeball' it.

[Early_S_Man]

I had not considered the possibility that you didn't have the clutch disk centered ... when I said there usually isn't a problem getting the splines of the transaxle input shaft aligned with the clutch disk!!!

If, when you next attempt the mating ... you have the transaxle in 5th gear, and when trying to get the splines aligned ... try slight movement of one of the rear wheels while applying pressure to close the gap between engine and bellhousing. If, after 15 minutes or so of struggling and no joy ... you may as well extract the engine, and take it out for re-installation of the pressure plate and disk!

You can make-up a temporary centering tool by selecting a 3/8" drive socket tha fits snugly into the pilot bearing. Take a 3" to 6" extension and attach to the selected socket. While holdding the clutch disk against the flywheel, insert the socket and extension as far as it will go into the pilot bearing ... then mark the outer extremes of the clutch disk hub splines on the extension. Take a roll of 1" wide tape ... masking tape, filament tape, etc. ... and proceed to build up a layer of tape out to the approximate ID of the disk splined area of the hub. Test fit the extension inside the disk hub. If too big ... take off a layer at a time, until the extension fits snugly inside the splines. If too small ... add a layer at a time, until the fit is snug.

[Wayne 962]

Hmmm, this is a classic example of attempting to perform a task without having the proper tools. There's really no excuse for not having the $8 transmission alignment tool. If you value your time at a mere $8/hr, and it saves you one hour of swearing.... well, you do the math...

USE THE PROPER TOOLS!!! I have this statement repeated many times in the new engine book.

I have also had no problems mating the transmission with the engine (by my self). Use a mirror and a flashlight, and shine it so that you can see the TO bearing from the small hole in the top of the transmission. The TO bearing has a large 1 cm (approx) groove along the side (circumference) of the bearing. The arm must mate in there.

Position the engine so that it's not all mated together. Then look down the hole. Turn the TO arm (it cannot be hooked up to anything right now, like the clutch cable) so that you are pointing it towards the groove. Push the engine forwards slightlyt - check again. Push, check, push, check, etc., until it's mated. Takes me about 5 minutes to complete. Make sure that the engine is at the proper height for mating with the transmission, and that it's balanced on the engine stand. This actually is the hardest part - one of those big yellow jack supports that we sell really help a lot.

Still, it can be done by one person...

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by Early_S_Man
I had not considered the possibility that you didn't have the clutch disk centered ... when I said there usually isn't a problem getting the splines of the transaxle input shaft aligned with the clutch disk!!!

If, when you next attempt the mating ... you have the transaxle in 5th gear, and when trying to get the splines aligned ... try slight movement of one of the rear wheels while applying pressure to close the gap between engine and bellhousing. If, after 15 minutes or so of struggling and no joy ... you may as well extract the engine, and take it out for re-installation of the pressure plate and disk!

You can make-up a temporary centering tool by selecting a 3/8" drive socket tha fits snugly into the pilot bearing. Take a 3" to 6" extension and attach to the selected socket. While holdding the clutch disk against the flywheel, insert the socket and extension as far as it will go into the pilot bearing ... then mark the outer extremes of the clutch disk hub splines on the extension. Take a roll of 1" wide tape ... masking tape, filament tape, etc. ... and proceed to build up a layer of tape out to the approximate ID of the disk splined area of the hub. Test fit the extension inside the disk hub. If too big ... take off a layer at a time, until the extension fits snugly inside the splines. If too small ... add a layer at a time, until the fit is snug.

Or, you can buy the $8 tool instead!



-Wayne

[Rick Lee]

Regarding Wayne's comments: I had this very same problem last weekend and I had the tool, but it WAS THE WRONG ONE. Pelican's catalogue states the same tool fits all from 1972-1998. Not true. I tried to use Marcesq's tool, which does fit his 915. It just spun freely inside my G50 disc. A frantic Saturday morning phone call to John Walker confirmed that 915's and G50's required separate tools. No local place was open on Saturday for me to run out and buy the proper tool. So JW said we could do the eyeball method and get away with it, which we did.

[tshih]

Get with it guys,

The proper procedure in any major 911 engine-tranny repairs is to remove the entire package and replace them together. That is the beauty of the design in the first place allowing quick and easy repairs during a race. Any short-cut like disengaging the gearbox from the engine with either part still bolted to the car is false economy of effort.

The proper tools do make the jobs easier-that's why they exist, your fellow brethrens in arms have already encountered those poor design problems and have solved them with the creation of the right tool. Give the Pelican Parts guys some business!

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

OK here we go:

We did not have the $8 dollar Pelican tool, but had the $50 Snap-on tool and an "East Texas White Trash Homemade Tool". For the record, a relative who works on old VWs suggested removing the starter.

Yesterday after work we started lowering the motor in order to remove it and decided to keep eyeballing it on the slow descent out of the vehicle. We were going to work on Warren's suggestions. During the descent we noted the transmission moving and becoming freer floating. We worked the tranny up and down in MM (see Leland's article) and found the "sweet spot" and slid her together.

The splines were positioned correctly and it appears the throw-out bearing was going in properly. We had the motor too high and were creating a bind.

Do note that next time I WILL remove the pair as one assembly and create less work and trauma on myself. Another note, make sure your work partner is also a drinker. Helps when you get to the frustrated stage.

[Doug Zielke]

Originally posted by Groesbeck Hurricane

We did not have the $8 dollar Pelican tool, but had the $50 Snap-on tool and an "East Texas White Trash Homemade Tool".

ROFLMAO!!

David...you (and your SC) deserve some SCWDP stickers for that gem. E-mail me your postal mailing address.

[lin7310948]

early S man,

Hey, I did not realize that anyone else would resort to such a clutch centering device. I finally bought a plastic one but the duct tape method worked well many a time!
By the way, I have a 500 inch Max wedge..Mopar ain't bad!

[Jim T]

Originally posted by tshih
Get with it guys,

The proper procedure in any major 911 engine-tranny repairs is to remove the entire package and replace them together. That is the beauty of the design in the first place allowing quick and easy repairs during a race

I wonder what John Walker does when he replaces a clutch??

I know, for example, what Andial does - seen them replacing clutches.

Having the right clutch alignnment tool is key.

[yelcab1]

Five times dropping the engine for various reasons, each time the tranny comes down as one unit with the engine, zero trouble each time the thing goes back up.

Additional work:
1. Disengage the shift fork and reallign (30 minutes)
2. Disengage and reinstall the CV joint / drive shafts (60 minutes)
3. Disengage clutch arms and reinstall (30 minutes)

2 hours of extra work that, in this situation, may save days of aggrevation.

Andial can do it their way, I'll continue to do it my way, thank you very much.

[Jim T]

Originally posted by yelcab1
Five times dropping the engine for various reasons, each time the tranny comes down as one unit with the engine, zero trouble each time the thing goes back up.

Additional work:
1. Disengage the shift fork and reallign (30 minutes)
2. Disengage and reinstall the CV joint / drive shafts (60 minutes)
3. Disengage clutch arms and reinstall (30 minutes)

2 hours of extra work that, in this situation, may save days of aggrevation.

Andial can do it their way, I'll continue to do it my way, thank you very much.

I was just wondering what John Walker does.

I've personally removed both as a unit, and just the engine. Removed just the engine at least a half a dozen times (including twice in the same day, don't ask!).

I've never run into any aggravation removing just the engine - I usually don't have a helper and actually find leaving the trans in place is a little easier.

I guess I just wonder when people say the only "proper" way is to remove both, when in practice it seems like just about every shop in the world would leave the trans in place if the work they were doing didn't require the trans to come out.

[Early_S_Man]

It takes nowhere NEAR an extra two hours to pull the transaxle with the engine! Maybe an extra 10-12 minues to disconnect CV-joints and starter cables ... assuming you already KNOW which tools you will need before you crawl under the car!

The risk you run leaving the trans in place have already been experienced and discussed here in the past week -- a damaged shift rod seal ... and a gear oil leak in the tunnel! Take your chances ... if you like! It takes a lot longer to replace the shift rod seal and clean up the mess ... than the extra 20 minutes on the whole R&R job!!!