Fuchs are mostly Magnesium

[82SuperC]

Told you it was a secret Fuchs Designator?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by island911
Thanks guys.

I was just getting pissy about Waynes dismissive posts.
. . . the first was right after I first posted "and the answer is. . ." and got:
Anyway, good posts by Nick and Rick. 'Cuz now we know Excellence *can* get the numbers and facts straight. . .even though we all know Bruce Andersons market reports are all-askew. (tic)

Uhh, although it's a good magazine, I would hesitate to call Excellence the final word on anything. There have been loads of errors in that magazine in the past. The article on the Fuchs was one datapoint, written by one author (who may or may not have been corrected). As I am qualified to know, just because it's written in print doesn' t mean it's true.

The message from the Fuchs factory is good enough to satisfy my need to verify information.

-Wayne

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by dvkk
Now getting to what started this in the beginning was Nick's question:
What about getting some Fuchs forged from Mg?

Can you forge magnesium?

-Wayne

[RickM]

Who was the person that suggested contacting Fuchs? He's the one who should get the golf clap.


Regarding optimal alloying of Magnesium:

"Aluminum has the most favorable effect on magnesium of any of the alloying elements. It improves strength and hardness, and it widens the freezing range, and makes the alloy easier to cast. When exceeding 6 wt%, the alloy becomes heat treatable, but commercial alloys rarely exceed 10 wt% aluminum. An aluminum content of 6 wt% yields the optimum combination of strength and ductility."

Forging: http://www.magnesium.com/w3/data-bank/article.php?mgw=150&magnesium=196

[island911]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
Uhh, although it's a good magazine, I would hesitate to call Excellence the final word on anything. . . .. .

The thing is Wayne, you should know by now is, I am my typical-questioning self. If that Excellence article was questionable (Like a BA mrkt report) I would NOT have referenced it. . . My BS-meter is working just fine.

A simple purusal of the cited article will give any reader (here) plenty of confidence over those previously dispute facts.
This article goes into data which could only be had from insider (Fuchs) knowledge. So read it; and then make a judgement as to its accuracy .. .if you don't want to rely on my abilities to call BS.

The pisser is, Wayne, that it was your post saying "Hmm, I thought someone would have been able to come up with a definitive answer by now..." that prompted me to dig thru the excellence mag's to find that specific alloy information. (I had ZERO doubt that these Fuchs are an Alum Alloy)

Your responce of "Where's Warren . .." . . .are you saying Warren is the definitive, error-free, materials engineering guru? . . .or just another one datapoint?

[Rana1]

Very interesting old thread, I always wanted to know..

But now I have a doubt, my Fuchs are AS 1.62, not AS 10.62. Is that a modification in composition or they just changed the name at the factory??




In a few days a 8Jx15 with the "AS 10.62" stamped will come home and I now wonder if it's a different wheel

[tcar]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Can you forge magnesium?

-Wayne

Yes, you can Forge Mg.


You can also anodize Magnesium. (as well as Aluminum, Titanium, Zinc and a couple other metals I've never heard of).

Anodizing metal is an electrolytic process (i.e. the 'wheel' is the Anode, hence the name).

Anodizing really just forces the metal to form a thicker, tougher oxide on the surface so that additional oxide can't form.

This layer can then be dyed different colors; bronze storefront window frames, etc.

The Fuchs are clear anodized. The black on the Fuchs is paint, over the anodizing.


BTW, the Mg 'Mahle' wheels, can catch fire and burn. Spraying them with water makes the fire a LOT more intense, can explode. They can ignite just by losing the tire and the wheel scraping on the road.

[RWebb]

IIRC, the C-GT wheels are forged Mg

[jcge]

Reference material for this old thread....

Alloy designations, compositions and properties on page 3 from the Otto-Fuchs website
(no detail on alloy tempers....)

Otto Fuchs Aluminium Alloys.pdf

[j911brick]

I have in fact seen real Fuchs mag wheels. the guy that had them told me they were racing prototypes that never went into production. I think there are actually a handful of these heels floating around.

[m110]

An interesting thread, for those that haven't read the whole thread, 96.5% Al, Mg >0.67%, Si >0.7

Originally Posted by nick-moss

EN AW-6082, 3.2315

typical mechanical properties

0,2% Yield strength Rp 0,2 240-310 MPa

Ultimate tensile strength Rm 250 MPa

Elongation A5 8-10 %

Hardness 91 HB

physical properties

Density 2,7 g/cm³

good welding properties

very good anticorrosion properties

good anodizing properties

good drilling and turning properties

alloy: AlSiMgMn (former AlMgSi1)
Temper: T651 stress relieved by stretching ,heat-treatable

Composition %: Al 96.5, Mg > 0.64, Si > 0.7

[DucktailCTR]

Originally Posted by banjomike

I am a Mechanical Engineer, and I had a class in metalurgy.

Each time you polish a surface, you remove a bit of the surface. With a paint you can eventually polish right through to the primer. This is not likely to be an issue with these wheels. Polishing regularly will likely prevent pitting and the stress risers and cracking associated with pitting.
Bare polished aluminum (and magnesium, and lead, and others) will oxidize rather quickly.
Aluminum is a great weather resistant metal becuase of this naturally occuring protective layer.
The natural oxidation is not as robust as an annodized layer.
Annodizing is hard and scratch resistant, bare aluminum is soft and scratches easily.
Fuchs wheels look good even when annodized or oxidized.
Polished Fuchs look Great.
My Fuchs need cleaning.

MsB

you don't need to be a metalurgist to know that polishing/buffing can bring you down to primer. learned that from experience in auto collision repair. burning through's a pain and that's probably why i'll paint my car flat/matte

[chris_seven]

Originally Posted by 82SuperC

Told you it was a secret Fuchs Designator?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Not so very secret

http://www.otto-fuchs.com/fileadmin/user_upload/images/pdf/Fuchs_WI_Al_GB_Scr.pdf

There have been many articles published by OttoFuchs where they state they use 6000 series alloys.

This family of alloys has very good corrosion reistance, welds quite well and is easy to anodise and has reasonable strength.

Anodising both Aluminium and Magnesium is also worth some comment.

Aluminium and some of its alloys anodise well because the crystal spacing of aluminium oxide is very similar to the base metal so when the surface is converted to an oxice the film adheres very well and is exceptionally strong.

Some limited porosity does result but this can easily be sealed by immersing the anodised part in boiling water (or a dye if colour is wanted)

The corrosion reistance of aluminium is significantly improved by anodising.

Magnesium does not anodise quite as successfully. The oxide film tends to be very porous and dosen't do much for corosion resistance.

Oxide film thicknesses of around 5 microns are generally produced as a primer for paint or other treatments - DOW 7 etc.

It is possible that some alloys can show improved corrosion resistance with 25 micron oxide films but only when sealed with compounds such as Sodium Silicate which will materially change the parts appearance.

To polish magnesium and anodise to a bright finish as with Aluminium is not really practical.

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by surflvr911sc

We wish!

And stainless steel doesn't corrode either...

[Roslin]

Die überlegenden Eigenschaften geschmiedeter Räder im Vergleich zu gegossenen Rädern haben Ihren Ursprung in dem eingesetzten Werkstoff.

Der OTTO FUCHS Schmiedewerkstoff, eine Knetlegierung mit mindestens 95% Aluminium- anteil, ist mit seiner Kombination aus Festigkeit und Zähigkeit jedem Gusswerkstoff überlegen. Das ermöglicht zusammen mit den von uns eingesetzten Simulations- und Fertigungstechniken geringere Wandstärken und damit eine deutliche Gewichtseinsparung im Vergleich zu Gussrädern.

Nicht zuletzt: In extremen Situationen bieten die geschmiedeten Aluminiumräder höhere Sicherheitsreserven als gegossene Räder. Ein weiterer Vorteil des Schmiedewerkstoffes ist seine Polierbarkeit: das dichte Metallgefüge und der geringe Siliziumgehalt sind nicht nur die Ursache für die hohe Festigkeit und Zähigkeit, sondern erlauben auch eine Hochglanzpolitur der Oberfläche. Mit ihrem einzigartigen Glanz setzen Schmiederäder auch hier den Maßstab!

[tharbert]

Originally Posted by Roslin

Die überlegenden Eigenschaften geschmiedeter Räder im Vergleich zu gegossenen Rädern haben Ihren Ursprung in dem eingesetzten Werkstoff.

Der OTTO FUCHS Schmiedewerkstoff, eine Knetlegierung mit mindestens 95% Aluminium- anteil, ist mit seiner Kombination aus Festigkeit und Zähigkeit jedem Gusswerkstoff überlegen. Das ermöglicht zusammen mit den von uns eingesetzten Simulations- und Fertigungstechniken geringere Wandstärken und damit eine deutliche Gewichtseinsparung im Vergleich zu Gussrädern.

Nicht zuletzt: In extremen Situationen bieten die geschmiedeten Aluminiumräder höhere Sicherheitsreserven als gegossene Räder. Ein weiterer Vorteil des Schmiedewerkstoffes ist seine Polierbarkeit: das dichte Metallgefüge und der geringe Siliziumgehalt sind nicht nur die Ursache für die hohe Festigkeit und Zähigkeit, sondern erlauben auch eine Hochglanzpolitur der Oberfläche. Mit ihrem einzigartigen Glanz setzen Schmiederäder auch hier den Maßstab!

"The fair over properties of forged wheels compared to casted wheels have its roots in the inserted material.


The OTTO FUCHS forged material, a wrought alloy with at least 95% is aluminum share, with its combination of strength and toughness to consider any material. This enables thinner walls and therefore a significant weight saving compared to cast wheels together with the used simulation and production techniques.


Last but not least: In extreme situations, the forged-aluminum wheels offer higher safety margins than cast wheels. Another advantage of the forged material is its polishing: the dense metal structure and the low Silicon content are not only the cause of the high strength and toughness, but allow also a high gloss polishing of the surface. With its unique splendor, forged wheels set the standard here, too!"

Thanks, Bing Translator...

[RobFrost]

Originally Posted by dvkk

OK, so why is the wheel marked with AS10.62, a magnesium alloy specification?

You sometimes see wheels with AS10.62 and other times the earlier wheels AS1.62, my claim is they're the same alloy but with or without the zero in the 0.62.

Re the comment from Fuchs, their text could be interpreted as saying they used two alloys, A or B. Designation A is a primarily aluminium alloy. Designation B they're silent on.

I might satisfy myself they're aluminium by the application of some vinegar to the back.

[Jonny042]

Kind of an old thread, but it's always fun to read a post by chris_seven, may he rest in peace.