Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > Porsche 911 Technical Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Senior Member
 
Jdub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great NorthWest
Posts: 3,854
Front Suspension in: Post-install comments.

Some of you may be following the thread about using rubber bushings on the A-arm (A-arm rubber bushing installation advice needed.). I finished up my front end this weekend and I have just a few comments that might help the next guy along.

As background, I am replacing parts in the front suspension. This includes the t-bars, strut inserts, ball joints, tie rods (turbos), A-arm bushings, repacking the steering rack and putting in a bump steer kit. I am doing this without separating hub and caliper from strut nor caliper from car body. No brake bleeding involved (just did that!).

REMOVAL:
I dropped the A-arms, suspension crossmember, and steering rack as one piece. To do this, I drove out the ball joint wedge pin at the strut, detached the steering rack at the lower U-joint (in the smuggler's box), drove out the tie rod at the strut loop, removed the three each bolts at the front of the A-arms, and removed the M12 bolts of the cross member. Then, under the car, I gently levered the assembly down onto my chest.

A-arms: Be sure to remove the end caps, at the front: do this using rebar (or another long piece of metal rod) and protecting the splines from the end of the rebar with a bit of electric or duct tape. Clean the splines thoroughly, with a brass toothbrush and also run a rag through the A-arm tube to remove rust flakes if any. Take the t-bar end that will fit into these front splines and run it in and out a few times to make sure it will go in smooth. Anti-seize should be used on the splines. On reassembly, leave the caps off until you have the t-bars in so you know they are in all the way and engage both at the front and at the rear (the cap) equally. Then use a proper-sized socket and small hammer to knock the end cap on, using a centerpunch to "pin" the cap at the edges if the cap appears loose (end caps can be flattened a bit in a vise to provide a tighter fit as well.) On reassembly, put sway bar deeply into each A-arm sway bar bushing mount and present the A-arms to the rear A-arm bushing cups already bolted into the suspension crossmember. You put the sway bar in deeply because it is easier to pull it away when time comes to reassemble the other two sway bar bushing assemblies: you don't want to have to push that sway bar in then, but rather pull it out. Putting the A-arms to the rear bushing cups means pushing one A-arm in while the sway bar hangs down to the other A-arm - a helper who can hold up the other side is useful here, or use a pair of Castrol oil boxes to help alleviate weird angles by holding the whole arrangement a bit closer to the bottom of the car.

Ball joints: !! On one side of my car, fully tightening the balljoint nut to the balljoint at the A-arm STILL LEFT A LOOSE FIT! Check this fit while A-arm is out so you can re-order or determine if your A-arm simply has too little material at the ball joint hole. (Tip: a bicycle shop should have the correct sized circular ring to shim this - be sure to use it on the underside of the A-arm and not the topside where the notch sits.) For the wedge pin at the strut, I took time to clean the area very thoroughly with WD-40 and applied anti-seize paste on the wedge pin as well. I hand-fitted the wedge pin while pushing up/turning the ball joint in the strut for best location. Even then, I had some wedge bolt protruding (the original was not). So I used a punch tool and hammer to tap the wedge pin in, and tightened it up snug. I punched it one more time then performed final torque (16ft/lb). At this time I also used a screwdriver levered against the dust shield to push the balljoint into a favorable angle to be received by the A-arm hole.

Inserts: There was oil in my strut - I don't know if it was from the insert or was damping/cooling aid? Used pin tool and hammer to start insert nut off of strut threads (they were not screwed that tightly). Loctited the new insert in, without any oil in the strut. BTW, I removed the insert last, with all other suspension bits out of the front end, and without removing the caliper, hub, etc. Just dropped it after unscrewing the topmost nut and laid it on a box of the correct height to prevent brake line damage. Be sure to lightly grease the hole to the trunk and clean out any dirt. Do this also for the rubber mating surface against which the strut/insert cover will sit.

Bushings for A-arm: Used Weltmeister Street version. Very nice. Fit A-arm side great, but once in bushing cup, ID was became too small. Removed from outside of bushing and all is good. Pretty impressed with fit - they also appear to be something very close to Neatrix in consistency. Use the bushing grease vendors provide: this stuff is very, very sticky and tough. It is amazing how much the bushing tightens up and looses play when you apply the grease. For channels, I doubled-up two Dremel round cutters and did the dual-elliptical-circles originating from the hole I drilled for the zirk. In retrospect, I think a channel from end to end, crossing the hole, and another at 180degrees plus a single circle that crosses the hole and connects both end-to-end channels would be easier to cut.

Steer rack: I regreased this and Loctited the rack to the susp. crossmember with the bump steer kit installed. There seemed so little play here that I was confident that I would not need to re-settle the rack to the crossmember to alleviate any stress. In contrast, the steer rack splined end, at the U-joint, is left loose, with only the nut and bolt in place at the U-joint. I will cinch this up last, after all torque values are used to cinch the entire suspension in place.

Tie rods: I measure the old ones and noted 30cm one side, 32 other (30+32=62 /2=31). With rack exactly centered (arms equidistant in extension) I Loctited in the tie rods (each at 31cm) and lightly center-punched a mark EXACTLY at the center of the rack. Now I can center the rack by measuring from this point to ball joint threaded "post" center and matching the values, one side to the other. Noted that cutout on spline does not line up center with rack/tie rods centered, so took this into account and rotated steering wheel to match steering U-joint bolt holes to match splined cutout on reassembly. Took two tries, but steering wheel reasonably centered and rack is centered. Will remove steering wheel and recenter after alignment.

Sway bar bushings: Use hair spray to help slide bushings in. Hair spray dries tacky and gives you about a minute to easily slide the bushings in before it sets up. Great stuff! Also, mount the sway bar to the bushings in the A-arm and install A-arms and sway bar as single item into already-installed susp. crossmember.

T-bars: A felt battery pole protector is a perfect fit for the t-bar foam seals. Buy two packs and double them up, being sure to put the red pair on the right, the green pair on the left.

REASSEMBLY:
Reassembly meant bolting the steering rack to the crossmember and offering this up to the car, having a helper guide the male steering rack splined end into the U-joint such that the hollow matched the U-joints' bolt opening. I finger-tightened the two M12 bolts of the crossmember in. Next, the rear A-arm cups, with bushings, are put into the crossmember by loosening, one side at a time, the M12 bolt and installing the cup with bushing, then putting the M12 finger tight back in again. Put the sway bar into the A-arm bushings and put one A-arm side into its rear bushing cup in the crossmember, then the other. Hand tighten the front A-arm bushing cup bolts (two, without cover). Slide in the fully-greased up t-bar and note, through A-arm front end hole, how far in it is. When happy, tap cap into front of A-arm. Reassemble sway bar bushings (two) to stabilizer bar that fits from crossmember to body. Now use long clamp to firmly push front A-arm bushing cup (use lip) towards suspension crossmember to remove any front-to-rear play. Put cover on and tighten all three bolts to 35ft/lb.

General tips: Never throw away the parts you remove until you are finished with your work - you will refer to these old parts more than you think. Have a huge box of surgeon's rubber gloves about. Use them carelessly, for example, once to grease t-bars then throw out, once to apply anti-seize (it never comes out of upholstery), once to keep your greasy mitts off the newly-painted parts. Hair spray is an excellent lubricant for about one minute, then it dries tacky. Use this to put in sway bar bushings and the like. A very good thing to have in your shop is a roll of 1" by (is it?) 60 foot 3M 60 grit. This tape-like roll of sandpaper lets you roll up a bit to form a barrel for ID work, or use a length of about 2 feet to "shoe polish" the OD of an object. For ID work, get a piece of 1/4 OD rod stock and, in a 2.5" length you have cut, cut a channel straight down the middle in a 1" depth. Now you can insert the 3M tape into this channel and wind up a barrel shape of any size that will conform to the ID of whatever it is you are removing material from. This is an old bicycle framebuilder's trick!

Torque values (all ft/lb):
Ball joint 1) at A-arm = 184 2) wedge pin = 16
A-arm 1) at crossmember (shared bolt) = 66 2) front bushing cup = 35
Strut/insert nut in trunk = 59
Insert nut = 87 + 14 (what does that mean? from Bentley manual)

I'll post more and edit as I remember and note problems in this writeup. Many thanks to the Pelican members who have saved me thousands of dollars in repair/maint. costs. I never could have done this without your help!

John

__________________
'78 Targa | WANTED TO BUY - NORTON COMMANDO PARTS - PLS MESSAGE.

Last edited by Jdub; 12-09-2003 at 12:39 PM..
Old 12-08-2003, 08:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
magilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Swampscott, MA USA
Posts: 531
Great writeup! You get an A on your book report!

I am planning to do most of these same tasks this winter, so I will refer back to this often. How many hours did it take you, and how many of those were due to "oops, I shouldn't have done that"?

Overall budget? Was the improvement noticable?
__________________
'83 SC Coupe- Blk/Blk
'03 Daughter- 10fingers/10toes
Old 12-08-2003, 09:04 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Jdub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great NorthWest
Posts: 3,854
The car is still up on jacks so I cannot say how this will feel, but given the amazingly dead appearance of bushings, t-bars, and tierods, this has gotta be a whole lot better. Better to look at anyways since I painted everything.

Total time for this guy is two weekends, full days, with painting during the week and drying time included. With a knowledgeable guide, cut that to less than half.

Budget hard to say. For example, I picked up most parts over the course of almost 1 and a half years. New shocks from D Cardone via classifieds, Pelican 10% off, etc. Really shopped around for price point. I figure about $1,200 total, front and rear. Note this is Sway a Ways, etc. so no high-zoot bits but for Chuck's Elephant Racing standard brace bar.

John
__________________
'78 Targa | WANTED TO BUY - NORTON COMMANDO PARTS - PLS MESSAGE.
Old 12-08-2003, 09:17 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Binge User
 
Schrup's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Glass House
Posts: 3,245
Thanks for the tip John, I forgot to measure my old tie rods before I threw them out. It appears I don't need the spacers provided with my turbo tie rods because they don't bottom out when I screw them into the steering rack. I am currently working double shifts, so when I find time to work on my beast I will refer back to your notes.
__________________
Paul

Last edited by Schrup; 12-08-2003 at 12:09 PM..
Old 12-08-2003, 09:37 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Chuck Moreland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 5,665
Paul, use the spacers. They are travel limiters to protect the seals on your rack.
__________________
Chuck Moreland - elephantracing.com - vonnen.com
Old 12-08-2003, 10:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Binge User
 
Schrup's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Glass House
Posts: 3,245
Thank you kind Sir.
__________________
Paul
Old 12-08-2003, 10:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Senior Member
 
Jdub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great NorthWest
Posts: 3,854
Glad to hear that - mine would have worked without spacers as well.

Can anyone shed any light/had any history on balljoints bottoming out before they grip the A-arm? That seemed pretty strange to me.

Also, what is the weight of our SC Targas? I cannot seem to find this information here or at Rennlist.

Many thanks,
John
__________________
'78 Targa | WANTED TO BUY - NORTON COMMANDO PARTS - PLS MESSAGE.
Old 12-08-2003, 12:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Alan Cottrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Yakima, WA
Posts: 592
Garage
great tip on the hair spray!
__________________
big AL
'77 911
Old 12-08-2003, 12:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
dickster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: a few miles east of USA
Posts: 3,393
great write up john.
__________________
Rich

'86 coupe

"there you are"
Old 12-08-2003, 01:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Jdub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great NorthWest
Posts: 3,854
Quick bump - still could use answers to questions.

= With the tbar fully pushed to the front of an A-arm, how much t-bar spline should I expect to be engaged with the cap at the rear, through the suspension carrier hole? 1/2" OK? Note that A-arm front and rear caps, as well as A-arm-to-suspension carrier are fully engaged and there is zero slop fore and aft.

= What is the weight of an SC Targa?

= With the car on jacks, what orientation should the tbar cap sit at? Do I set this cap center, up, or low? I have fresh inserts and stiffer t-bars, so I am assuming I will have to lower the car against the increased resistance once I put the car on its wheels.

Many thanks for answering these questions folks!

John
__________________
'78 Targa | WANTED TO BUY - NORTON COMMANDO PARTS - PLS MESSAGE.
Old 12-09-2003, 07:19 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
SC-targa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Winter Garden, Florida
Posts: 887
I figure an SC targa with air, power windows and the normal equipment would weigh around 2,750 to 2,800 pounds.

Jerry Kroeger
__________________
82 911SC targa
05 Boxster S
87 Suzuki GSXR-1100
1939 Ford Convertible Coupe
Old 12-09-2003, 09:42 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
ZAMIRZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 3,192
Garage
Send a message via AIM to ZAMIRZ
God bless you John, I just bookmarked this thread. I hope you realize how much this gonna help when I "do it all".
__________________
Amir

'83 911SC
Old 12-09-2003, 09:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Jdub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great NorthWest
Posts: 3,854
It's all about giving back for what I've been given.

I do have an awful lot more information as well, all the fiddly bits.

It is so typical that the best job you'll do is the second time around. I had to laugh when the irony of Chuck's comment about "If you don't do it right the first time make sure to make time to do it again" started to make sense.

Did I mention that I am now a dedicated torque wrench guy? I've spent many years using it only when I thought it needed to be applied. I am convinced now. Even though my wrench is an Inch/Lbs item (conversion) it has enough to get the job done (except for the balljoint, which I believe is about 2,235 Inch/lbs!).

John
__________________
'78 Targa | WANTED TO BUY - NORTON COMMANDO PARTS - PLS MESSAGE.
Old 12-09-2003, 10:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
KTL KTL is offline
Schleprock
 
KTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Frankfort IL USA
Posts: 16,244
Chuck,

To what "seals" are you referring on the steering rack. The rack has no seals other than the accordian boots. Only metal bushings to support the true rack. These tie rod spacers hit these bushings and limit the rack travel I assume? Thanks.

John,

The cap should be installed enough so that the threaded height adjusting pin passes cleanly thru the alum. x-member If I remember correctly, the adjustable end cap on my job bottomed out on the end of the t-bar? I didn't remove the front end caps so I just slid the bar all the way in and the cap sits nicely at the end of the bar, aligning itself with the slot in the x-member. Look at this thread:

Turbo Tie Rot??

Setting the initial height is a little bit of trial and error. I set my height so that the adjuster cap would end up in the middle of the adjustment range upon loading the suspension.

But, this does not mean you simply install the cap with the threaded end pointed at the bottom of the x-member. You need to raise the suspension arm up a bit and then install the cap with the threaded end pointed at the bottom of the x-member. Raise the A-arm up to a point which is slightly lower than the location at which you guess the suspension will eventually settle upon. Then, when the weight of the car loads the t-bar, the height of the arm will raise a bit more/the car will drop a bit more.

If you don't do this "pre-indexing" guess and raise the A-arm, the adjuster screw will instantly contact the top of the x-member, the weight of the car will load the t-bar and your ride height will be too high.

You of course know that the stiffer/bigger t-bars will not use as much suspension travel upon loading since they resist the weight of the car more than the standard t-bars do. Meaning, they do not twist as much as stock t-bars do.

Hope this helps?
__________________
Kevin L
Present: '86 Carrera, '79 911SC widebody conversion rolling racecar shell
Past: '87 Carrera

Last edited by KTL; 12-09-2003 at 12:42 PM..
Old 12-09-2003, 12:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Jdub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great NorthWest
Posts: 3,854
That help a lot - I can picture this now. The increased resistance via new parts, and for that matter parts more resistant to loading, will mean I will naturally have a higher ride height right off the bat when I lower the car off the jacks. If I preload the suspension and take an educated guess I will probably get the cap centered, which is what I want.

Now why do all the pics I see, and my own car, have the blue Loctite in the threading of the adjuster? Reading the manuals, they would have you use anti-seize. In fact, I rotary-brushed the thread of the adjuster bolts so they would glide - have I done wrong? Do these loosen up over time?

Many thanks!
John

EDIT: I'd guess a quick way to estimate this is to measure from the spindle (center of cap, really) to the lip of the fender. This measurement can be extracted by subtracing 1/2 the wheel diameter from 25inches. Now, using that value, you can use a tape measure to measure from the center of the wheel bearing cap to the lip of the fender and have a *reasonable* measurement to use when pre-compressing the front suspension. Make sense?
__________________
'78 Targa | WANTED TO BUY - NORTON COMMANDO PARTS - PLS MESSAGE.

Last edited by Jdub; 12-09-2003 at 01:19 PM..
Old 12-09-2003, 01:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Jeff Alton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Langley,B.C.
Posts: 10,493
Jdub, Mine also had the blue loctite but I can not see how a bolt under load like that one could back it self out even without the loctite. I do not think that you should worry. Of course, I am having my own d%$# front end problems, so take what I say with a grain of salt!!

Jeff
__________________
Turn3 Autosport- Full Service and Race Prep
jeff@turn3autosport.com
997 S 4.0, Boxster 2.7, Boxster S race car, 958 Cayenne TT, VW GTI 2.1 TSI, Mini Cooper S JCW, Cannondale Supersix EVO SRAM RED E-tap, Cannondale Slice SRAM RED E-tap
Old 12-09-2003, 01:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
KTL KTL is offline
Schleprock
 
KTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Frankfort IL USA
Posts: 16,244
John,

Your measuring estimate is just what I did. Thanks for jogging my memory! I measured from the floor to the fender lip and subtracted that 1/2 of 25 in. to get a starting point of where the susp. would settle. A completely wild guess of one inch of travel once the new 22mm bars were loaded was what I tried?

Regarding the blue Loctite.............. Yes. You did wrong. That is not blue Loctite on there. It's a nylon/plastic patch bonded to the screw to act as a self-locking means. Prevents the screw from moving I guess?

I wouldn't worry too much though. Especially since those screws are mondo expensive brand new. $35 ea. from Pelican! If it's gonna bother you, i'd call up a salvage place and get some used ones for a few bucks and hope that the plastic patch is still there? I'm sure the used ones would be just fine. I did something similar to you. To clean up my screws, I put 'em in a bath of Berryman parts cleaner and after I took 'em out I thought I ruined the nylon. As you can see from the picture in that other topic, some is still on there. My front end hasn't crashed to the ground yet.
__________________
Kevin L
Present: '86 Carrera, '79 911SC widebody conversion rolling racecar shell
Past: '87 Carrera

Last edited by KTL; 12-09-2003 at 01:53 PM..
Old 12-09-2003, 01:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Jdub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Great NorthWest
Posts: 3,854
Well doggone! I guess I am going to need to clean those screws and put them in clean, dabbing Loctite on them when the front end is where I want it. There is no way I am paying that price for a new adjusting screw!

Buttoned everything up last night. On the inside of the pan, I put a sticker listing all the modifications I'd performed. Posterity? Next owner? Immortality? Pride of work!

John, a humble yet esteemed poster... ;>
__________________
'78 Targa | WANTED TO BUY - NORTON COMMANDO PARTS - PLS MESSAGE.
Old 12-10-2003, 05:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Pat S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 798
John,
Great write-up. Any chance you have a full parts or price list on this project?

Pat

__________________
Current: 07 S4 Avant, 06 Volvo S60R
Sold: '74 911, 01 986, 93 Volvo 240
Old 12-10-2003, 03:31 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:19 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2020 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.