CIS to EFI kit

[ohecht]

Tony,

Are there any other options for managing the idle speed with regards to temperature besides the AAR? I think I read a long time ago that Megasquirt only has a cold output signal that could be used for high/low idle, but nothing progressive like the AAR.

I know you are wisely using as many existing components as possible, but I am curious if there is a way to clean the engine compartment up further and gaining more control over idel speed by losing the AAR.

Olivier

[tbitz]

MegaSquirt was originally designed to have a idle up solenoid which would come on and stay on until a certain engine temperature was reached where it would then turn off.

Some folks have modified the software to modulate this output allowing MegaSquirt to provide a "close loop" idle control. This is similar to what modern EFI cars use.

Since the AAR is already found in CIS and effectively does the same job and costs nothing I've opted not to add electronic idle control and leave the AAR as is. This keeps the kit simple and as cheap as possible.

Also this idle control output has been used for timing control in yet another software spin-off of MegaSquirt. I am looking at using this in my turbo application, so that is another reason not to use it for idle control.

[911Mac]

Here are a few pictures of my engine after installing Tony's kit.


I'm still waiting on some new heater hoses and will install/adjust the belt for the air conditioning compressor when the new hoses go on.

[GrindingGears]

This thread: FREGGIN' AMAZING!

I just learned a whole lot reading this thread through. I can't believe all this information is free. Once again, amazing.

Great work Tony.

Looks good Mac. How did you remedy the heater hose space issue? I can't tell from your picture, maybe I'm looking in the wrong area. Maybe you 're removing the whole heater fan system?

[dd74]

Tony - I finally read through all 16 pages of this thread - well skimmed them, and found the information enlightening. 23 hp advantage is quite a bit considering $1,600.

I'm an advocate of the stock 911 engine - or at least my own - which is an '83 SC engine with backdated exhaust. It produces about 190 hp and runs quite well.

But the need for more sometimes tugs at me...

So, for that reason, I have hanging around in my garage, all the bits and pieces needed to back date the '83 CIS to the earlier larger intake runner style (34mm vs. 38 or 39mm for the early SC motors - I can't remember).

Anyway, my long-term plans would be to install the early CIS on my late CIS engine, port match the heads and swap in some 20/21 cams and 3.0+-sized headers. How would your EFI system act with such a setup? I imagine an early/late SC hybrid with CIS would generate about 215 crank hp. With your setup such an engine would be approx. 238 hp. Is that correct or optimistic - you tell me?

Also, I am mechanically moronic - I can barely turn a screw and damn proud of it. If I bought the Bitz Racing EFI kit, I would have a competent Porsche mechanic set this up (Tyson Schmidt). Is it something they/he can do fairly easily?

Thanks. The kit is wonderful. Good job seeing something home grown come to fruition.

[beepbeep]

EFI will support any cams...there is no flapper that gets confused. You should connect MAP to plenum and not to runners though (to avoid pulsating).

[Elombard]

Guys, I know it is a long thread but this cam thing has been brought up several times in it.

[Doug Steinel]

Ew, the cam question has been brought up but not reslolved. See Noah's separate thread where he is describing the installation of Tony's EIF kit.

[911Mac]

Philip,

I cut a small amount of material off the housing that directs the air to the hose going to the blower, it's plastic. I also made a slit in the hose itself, this allows the rail to protrude about a half inch into the hose and leaves just enough to use the original hose clamp. It doesn't leak much air, still plenty of volume from the heater.

Mac

[GrindingGears]

Easy enough, thanks for responding.

[A Quiet Boom]

Adding to the issue of camshafts. In my experience most people tend to overcam their engines as well as not properly match it to the rest of the engine. If you really think you need to run a huge cam, you'll also need to increase plenum size as well as exhaust header diameter to get full power from the cam. What you will get is a full race type motor and al the pros/cons that entails. Like Tony said a big cam will push the power to the top of the rpm band and into a very narrow range, as long as you stay in or near that range the motor is a blast, outside of it and it will be tempermental and really no fun to drive. I've had V8 motors that just plain would smooth out until 3500 rpm and were darn near impossible to drive on the street but a blast on the track and I've had motor with a more midrange oriented cam with the appropriate intake that well a total blast on the street and only gave up a little on the track. EFI will support either setup but I'd say for most folks the best setup will be something less than a full on race cam. Looking at the cam specs I'd say an S cam is about max for an enjoyable street car and an E or similar would probably be a better all around choice. I guess what I'm trying to say is that just because you can run a big cam doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

[ohecht]

Tony,

I am looking to get an EFI and ignition solution before any turbo project, and I am bouncing between your approach and other aftermarket fuel and spark management systems.

I have a few more questions after visiting the Megasquirt site:

- What are the best options with your kits you see for controlling ignition on NA cars that may be turbocharged (and twin-plugged) in the future? One of the Megasquirt add-ons, or a stand-alone aftermarket ignition kit like Electromotive's? I have always felt my ignition is "sloppy" (the dist cap rotates a few degrees even when clipped down, and I would probably eventually twin plug and need something more than the stock distributor).

Thanks,

Olivier

[tbitz]

Oliver,

I will be looking at modifying the code to also do ignition advance/retard with my units. This is already being done with the megasquirt ECU by others. Visit the MegaSquirt'n'Spark yahoo group for details.

For boosted engines, you could go with a MSD boost retard unit. I can't comment on other aftermarket ignitions as I has no experience. The MegaSquirt'N'Spark will also has the ability to retard based on boost.

Cheers

[ohecht]

Any updates from the first round of installers?

How is the fuel economy, throttle response, etc.?

Olivier

[911Mac]

Oliver,

I'm getting a little over 25 mpg but my driving is mostly highway, I got around 21 or 22 before with the old CIS system.

As far as throttle response, I'd say its no worse than the CIS, but I'm still tweeking some of the settings. It's currently running as good as the old CIS (which wasn't bad), but I think there's still some room for improvement. Lots of variables come into play for tuning. At this point I'm lusting after a wide-band O2 sensor.

Mac

Kit installed on a stock 82SC with 141,000 miles. About 2,500 miles put on since the conversion using Tony's kit.

[rdane]

From Tony's numbers it looks like Peak Hp (at the wheels): 187DIN Hp @ 6250rpm = 220 DIN crank from a 8.5:1 compression, 3.0L car if I have read this correctly.

The '74 factory 3.0L RS was 230 DIN at the crank with bigger ports and valves, competition induction system, road rally exhaust, and 9.8:1 compression.

220 DIN from a 8.5 compression stock engine and EFI would be an impressive performance.

[ohecht]

Tony,

This is from a long way back in this thread, but what kind of wideband O2 sensor and controller are you using?

The DIY stuff I found from the Megaquirt site seems to have dried up as prices of complete products came down, and the others seem competitive in price and features.

This one seemed very interesting, since it will drive both any aftermarket ECU and a standard A/F ratio gauge:

http://www.machv.com/wio2sekit.html

http://www.jscspeed.com/universal/electronics/aem_uego.htm

This one seems to be the most popular, but it also seems to be more of a portable tuning solution than a permanently integrated part of one car.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/lm1.php

Olivier

[tbitz]

I am using the original NTL L1H1 wideband sensor (very expensive) with the diy wbo2 controller.

Like you said there are much cheaper solutions today with Boschs introduction of the LSU wideband O2 sensor.

If your going to use megasquirt, no need to get fancy displays because the output from the WBO2 can be logged in the laptop. All you need is the sensor and the WBO2 controller. Megasquirt will accept a 0-5v input that usually comes from a WBO2 controller.

Cheers,

[ohecht]

Speaking of logging, can MS log anytime and then download to a laptop later, or does it only log when it is already connected to a laptop?

Olivier

[tbitz]

Laptop does the actual logging. MS only dumps data to the serial port in real time. Something has to be connected to the serial port to log the data.