CIS to EFI kit

[A Quiet Boom]

tbitz, I understand and fully agree with your idea. I'm simply looking at the upgrade path beyond your intial setup. Given that as a starting point I'd need a well flowing intake design that uses standard injectors and probably a Mustang TB since they are available in almost any size you want. The manifold would have to also imporve the look of the engine compartment but in a simple way.

[tbitz]

Originally posted by geert924
Tony, will your injector bungs fit a 924 na ?? This
car has a bosch K-jetronic intake system (CIS).

I really love what you're doing!

geert924

Not sure if they will fit a 924. Check out the following for details and dimensions:

bungs details

[Lukesportsman]

Tony,

No, I think what your doing is great. I also think it is the best route to go for marketing. There will be a lot of people who only want to improve driveability and gain some performance. Great, since this is your initial kit and is a relatively bolt on conversion. We are simply expanding the horizon of your kit. I am not trying to point out any short comings. We are just looking at a way to take your kit to the next level. This could broaden your market to allow us HP Junkies to consider your option vs. the more expensive systems on the market. If you take your EFI kit, a custom $1k manifold, and if chosen a custom turbo you might have just equaled a entry level conventional EFI conversion for a Porshe.

Fact, your kit has impressed me enough that I'm strongly considering the route of SC engine with EFI conversion for my early car rather than more expensive options. Sure 3.6 are fast, but are expensive to rebuild. Even with a rebuild down the road a converted 3.0 makes good fiscal sense to me with a possible turbo down the road.

Like I mentioned before, it would be great if we, here at Pelican, could work in conjunction with each other to create a great path of reasonably priced upgrades. This way our strength in numbers can help in making it financially possible to produce.

[A Quiet Boom]

Tony, I'm in total agreement with Luke on this. I plan to buy either your whole kit or part of it sometime after Hershey to replace the Zenith setup on my '66 with an SC motor. This way I can return the Zenith's to the 2.0 they came off of so I can return it to the '66 when I complete my Targa project. I've planned on a turbo for the Targa since day one and your kit makes that much easier. However I'm a HP nut, having grown up around big inch drag cars and the like too fast is never enough. Installing your kit, then eventually a custom manifold, custom intercooler and custom turbos setup will allow me to build my HP in stages rather than one big up front expense. None of this would be possible without the kit you've designed because I would have to spend a fortune on Electromotive, SDS or Motec up front which would take up a large portion of the money I need to get the car together. With your kit I simply bolt in the 3.0, hook up the injection and I instantly have a driveable car that I can then upgrade as I see fit.

You've come up with a great idea, not only will it bring better drivability to CIS cars but it also allows us to take them to the next level. Another thought on the intake idea, if a smaller version where to be made it could be used with your kit to upgrade an early MFI or carbed car which makes your market even bigger.

[Doug Steinel]

Tony,

Will your kit work as a replacement for the CIS of a '77 2.7L?

[tbitz]

Originally posted by Doug Steinel
Tony,

Will your kit work as a replacement for the CIS of a '77 2.7L?

I have a person that will be installing the kit in a '75 2.7L shortly. I don't suspect there will be any major problems. The thing that seems to vary from one year to another is the fuel fittings on the return line.

[cowtown]

Tony,
I apologize if you have answered this already, but I didn't see it anywhere:

Have you looked at a 930 phenolic (plastic) injector block to see whether it could be adapted to use your CIS-EFI bung?

OR, have you considered making replacement blocks like the Pat Williams Racing parts? http://www.patwilliamsracing.com/racedrivetrainefi.htm

[tbitz]

Originally posted by cowtown
Tony,
I apologize if you have answered this already, but I didn't see it anywhere:

Have you looked at a 930 phenolic (plastic) injector block to see whether it could be adapted to use your CIS-EFI bung?

OR, have you considered making replacement blocks like the Pat Williams Racing parts? http://www.patwilliamsracing.com/racedrivetrainefi.htm

My injector bungs won't work with the 930 injector blocks. I need to get a couple in my hands to see how they can be machined to fit an EFI bung.

If anyone has a couple they want to part with shoot me an email.

[ohecht]

So how are the first installed systems working for their new owners?

I am anxious to here how it is working, and for news on Tony's turbo kit!

Olivier

[magic930]

I am working on the 930 injector block problem. I bored one out last weekend to 13.5mm. The brass unfortunately is not thick enough and is stepped to hold it in the plastic. You end up with stripes of brass and stripes of plastic when looking in the bored out hole. This will not be a safe way to make a seal on the injector. It will probably require a thin walled aluminum bung to work, I think standard bungs are 3/4 wide OD and there is not enough material left to bore to that diameter safely. Injector clearance may also be a problem. The maximum width of the injector body would not be able to exceed 24mm, other wise it will foul with the top edge of the injector block and bottom edge of the intake... this can be solved by using the newer Bosch type III injectors.

[cowtown]

Keep us posted, Magic. The 930 people are feeling left out of all this excitement.

[Doug Steinel]

I am interested in hearing some reports from the pioneers who have tried Tony's system. Anyone completed it?

[magic930]

The other problem for the 930 is that the injectors are at a slight angle somewhere between 4-5 degrees, it is nearly impossible to measure this angle exactly and is part of the reason that the Pat Williams setup is expensive. My first idea is to use the "MSD 90degree Top Fuel Mounts". These would be attached to the bottom of the fuel rail allowing you to tilt them slightly to match any injector angle. The "U shape" rail would then sit sideways to point the adapters downwards
I have also invesitigated having some aluminum blocks made to replace the plastic. I have modeled the injector block in 3D with the bung built in to the design and with a known injector angle so the rail could be drilled accurately. However, these will be expensive to make unless made in large quantities... any interest?

[cowtown]

Originally posted by magic930
...any interest?

I am interested. Please let me know when you can ballpark the price. I can't justify shelling out for the Pat Williams setup, but if you come up with something functionally similar, I'd be a guinea pig on this project. You could check with the guys on C2Turbo.com as well. Thanks.

[tbitz]

Here is an update.

I've received my new fuel rails that allow the kit to work with A/C. The new fuel rails have a port underneath that allows the fuel fitting to screw into. The port at then end of the rail can be plugged with a low profile plug that does not interfere with the A/C pump.

You will need to grind a little material from a bracket holding the A/C pump and a bit off of one of the fuel rail brackets. One person (Mac) has already made this work with his A/C. Here are pics of the new rails with the two options for the fuel fitting.

here is how the fuel rail looks for a setup without A/C.


And here is the same fuel rail for use with A/C.

[tbitz]

Folks I'd like to keep this thread focused on the CIS to EFI for the NA 911 only. The thread is already fairly long any diversion will make it lose it's focus. So let's keep this discussion for the CIS to EFI kit for the NA 911.

I've started a thread for discussion on a CIS to EFI for the 930. Here we can discuss ideas on how to best convert the 930 to EFI. Here is the link:

CIS to EFI for the 930

[911Mac]

I just completed the installation of Tony's CIS to EFI kit in my 82 911SC. The car is a stock SC 140,000 miles with air conditioning and the stock heater hoses and fan. With the modified fuel rails Tony's come up with, the system fits in the car with a slight modification of one of the air conditioner support brackets and one of the fuel rail supports. I have some pictures of the modified parts if you're interested.

The heater hoses are a little interesting in that the very end of the left fuel rail wants to occupy the same space as the hose running to the ventelation fan. In fact, it's at exactly the point where the hose connects to the shroud coming off the engine. My old hoses were pretty well shot so I'm waiting from some new ones from our host before I get everything back together. I plan on letting the rail just protrude through the hose so I can retain the stock parts. Not an elegant solution, but a functional one. I'll post a photo once I get all the hoses in place.

On the installation, I used the old airbox as is. If I had it to do all over again, I'd seriously consider cutting up the airbox like Tony did. There's so much more room to work on things with the airbox cut down. On my installation, I removed the airbox and intake runners so I could replace the intake gaskets and check the security of the rubber runner to airbox connections. Had I left it in place, some parts of the installation would have been very difficult (there's a lot of plumbing back there for the CIS that I ended up removing).

The car is running pretty well just using Tony's base Megasquirt configuration. But I still need to do a little tweeking to get everything running exactly the way I want. Haven't done any WOT runs just yet, want to make sure everything's correctly configured first.

Tony's kit, documentation, and installation support are all top notch.

Pics will follow.

BTW - It's a blast driving down the road with the laptop displaying the sensor realtime data, as a passenger of course.

[tbitz]

OK folks, the long awaited dyno numbers are in.

Car is my 1978 911SC with the CIS to EFI kit installed. I also have backdated exhaust. I don't have Hp figures for before the conversion, so we'll have to do some calculations to estimate how much gains the EFI kit has.

First of all we calibrated the dyno to make sure the absolute numbers were as real as possible. All figures/plots are corrected to STP conditions.

We ran two types of readings. Static and dynamic. In the dynamic test the car was in gear and a plot was made through out the rpm range as the car accelerated.

The next test was setting the dyno to hold the engine at a given rpm, and reading the peak Hp.

The two tests give slightly different numbers which can be explained. In a dynamic test the dyno must account for the inertial loads created by rotational accelerating loads. It does account for the rollers and load cell but it doesn't account for rotational loads of wheels, shafts, etc. Thus a dynamic test will yield lower values than a static rpm test. The static test will be more accurate for determining engine Hp.

Here is the data from the dynamic test


Peak Hp (at the wheels): 187Hp @ 6250rpm
Peak Torque(at the wheels): 173ft-lbs @ 5000rpm

For the statics tests here are the numbers (again rear wheel Hp):

3500 rpm = 125Hp
4500 rpm = 172Hp
5500 rpm = 196Hp
6250 rpm = ??? peak should have been here but I didn't get a static figure
6500 rpm = 192Hp

Now to make some estimates as to how much gains the EFI kit gives.

A stock 1978 911SC has 180Hp(at engine)@ 5500rpm and 165ft-lbs @ 4200.

Transmission losses are about 10%, so that takes the max static Hp of 196 from rear wheels to 218Hp at the engine. Backdating the exhaust is good for about 15Hp so we'll subtract that.

Therefore the gains of the EFI kit are about 23Hp. This is a large gain. I think a good portion of that is coming from the removal of the restrictive CIS metering plate. The rest is from the ability to fine tune the mixture. I am running about 12.5-13 AFR at WOT and 14.7 at cruise.

Overall I am very happy with my setup, the gains are real, engine response is quicker, engine bay is cleaner, and fuel economy has improved.

The above calculations are based on some estimates so their will be some variation. It's too bad I don't have "before" dyno plots to give more accurate numbers.

If you feel my estimates are wrong please let me know.

Cheers,

[Lukesportsman]

Great job! Glad to see your car do so well on the dyno. It would really have been, will be, neet to see a before and after dyno. Your engine is a 78 with how many miles? What I'm saying is that you might have likely started with less than the factory claimed hp of some 25 years ago. There is always the argument of 10-12-15% power losses from drivetrain from flywheel hp. This 5% difference could be huge here making the total hp gain a potential 30%.

If we can get supporting data on a handful of engines to confirm this, these kits should become the 1st recommended mod after exhaust or maybe before to all SC's.

Have you got MPG data yet?

[aigel]

Great results. What cams does your engine have? Stock? You realize yourself that there is problems with the missing before data. However, the very least you know is that your injection does as good as CIS, and I agree, it probably does much better!

From a tuning aspect of things, it gets real interesting once you get higher compression and radical cams because that's wehre the CIS really fails. Can the EFI support those engines. You claimed yes, earlier, but a test would be nice. Then your kit will compete with the PMO / Weber conversions and the REAL expensive pro EFI kits.

Maybe you can find a tester that can install your EFI on a carbureted engine that is modified with rowdy (e.g. S) cams? That would open a whole new market. You should talk to some of the pro folks on this board. Maybe someone can get their customer interested in the installation of this kit.

Too bad I still have a real job, I'd get right on it otherwise.

George