Suspension question: Look at that lean!

[SpeedracerIndy]

I attended my second PCA HPDE a few weeks ago. I had an unbelievable time, and am unfortunately now hooked on this HPDE thing.

My girlfriend was out there taking pictures of my and I was surprised how much my car was leaning in the corners compared to some of the other cars, particularly the newer 911's and Boxsters. Is this a normal amount?



It would seem that in order to be quicker around corners on the track I would want it to be as flat as possible.

What can I do to make the car corner flatter, without sacrificing too much street-ability? I was contemplating swapping out the stock Boge shocks for Biilstein Sports and bigger sway bars. Would that do it?

Thanks.

[DRACO A5OG]

That looks normal, any stiffer and your passenger side front wheel will come off the ground.

Yes, Thicker Torsion and Sway bars will make you flatter.

To Keep it Street too, Go with Bilstein HDs Front and Sport Backs

What is your Camber and Toe Settings? Ride Height front and rear?

[IROC]

Actually, that doesn't look too bad. It is relatively normal for a stock car to have some decent body roll. To limit body roll (lean) you need to increase the car's roll stiffness. This can be done by larger torsion bars and/or larger sway bars. Suspensions work best when each component is sized to complement the others, so in order to "do this right", it is best to look at the whole suspension system and upgrade it as a system rather than changing one thing only.

For instance, larger sway bars will increase roll stiffness, but to really optimize the handling, torsion bars (springs) shocks and everything else come into play.

You might check out Elephant Racing's website for some additional info.

Having said all of that, you can learn a great deal with a perfectly stock car at DEs. My car - when I started out - had a 16mm front sway bar and no rear bar. Talk about body lean!! I drove it that was for a number of DEs, though...

[SpeedracerIndy]

Thanks for the input guys!

DRACO A5OG: not sure what my toe and camber settings are. I just had the car aligned a week before my track day by a shop that has significant experience aligning air cooled 911's. I told them it's 90% street and a few track days in between, so set it up so I'll be happy. They appear to have done a good job because the car tracks straight on the highway, and handled very well on the track with a predictable amount of understeer.

IROC: Good advice about the system working together. This is why I'm glad I asked the question before I started purchasing things. One reason I was contemplating making changes is because my rear Boge's are worn out. They are leaking oil, and original to the car, so I just figured I'd upgrade some things at the same time to try to make it a bit flatter in the corners. I like your advice though about learning on a stock car first. I have plenty of room for improvement in my skill level before I even reach the limits of my car. The capability of my 30 year old car in it's stock form truly amazed me last weekend. All day in 85 degree heat and it didn't even break a sweat!

Thanks again, and I'll check out the Elephant site to start pricing some options.

[DRACO A5OG]

My Roll with Oem Sways and T-bars but with Bilstein HD/Sports



Currently I have 22/29 T-bars and '86 Carrera Sway Bars. Less roll but I do get lift off

You want to up the T-bars with Sway to insure rear mounts won't snap off.

[aston@ultrasw.c]

You are standing at the top of a slippery slope and asking for a push

[winders]

Originally Posted by DRACO A5OG

That looks normal, any stiffer and your passenger side front wheel will come off the ground.

That's not how it works.

You get the front tire off the ground when the roll couple distribution is biased too much to the front. In other words, the front is too stiff compared to the rear.
Scott

[Plavan]

You look fine for what you have.

I tightened my rear bar after seeing this picture. I can still lift it if I try, but the car handles much better on 4 tires going through fast turns....

[DRACO A5OG]

Damn Plavan, is your right rear lifting too ??? Wow!

Originally Posted by Plavan

You look fine for what you have.

I tightened my rear bar after seeing this picture. I can still lift it if I try, but the car handles much better on 4 tires going through fast turns....

[equality72521]

Speedracer, hit me up sometime. Where are you doing these events?

[haycait911]

Originally Posted by Plavan

You look fine for what you have.

I tightened my rear bar after seeing this picture. I can still lift it if I try, but the car handles much better on 4 tires going through fast turns....

that's a very cool car.

[T77911S]

beautiful plavin!
what flares are on it?

[175K911]

IROC is correct- have fun learning to drive the car the way it is for a few events. After 25+ years of driving 911's with modded suspensions, it's always fun to instruct a student with a pure stock SC or Carrera. I actually find the stock cars quite pleasant, and as a novice it'll be a while before you get to the point where you're being limited by the car's capabilities.

That said, when you start down that slippery slope it's best to do an entire package- shocks, torsions and sways. But always keep in mind that there's a tradeoff with any change. Stiffening the suspension via torsion bars will sacrifice daily ride comfort, the severity will depend on how big you go with the torsion bars, and what shocks you install.

It's been a while, but I remember when my '83 SC was just a year old and I started modifying the suspension. My decision was that the car had to still be comfortable enough to take on occasional weekend vacation trips but be more competent at the track. So I installed 21/28 torsion bars, Bilstein HD front/ Sport rear, and 22mm adjustable sway bars (H&H who are no longer around). I actually liked the way the car rode on the street, less bobbing in the front over ripples in the pavement. And quite nice on the track. I ran that combintion until '86 when I traded that car for a new '86 911 which I upgraded with new suspension the day after I drove it out of the showroom.

BTW- Get that garage queen S4 out and bring it up to one of our Chicago Audi Club DE's. Or bring the 911, and I'll be your instructor.

[s_morrison57]

Originally Posted by aston@ultrasw.c

You are standing at the top of a slippery slope and asking for a push

+ 1 See you at the bottom

[Plavan]

Originally Posted by T77911S

beautiful plavin!
what flares are on it?

Thanks. Not to hijack, but the rears are handmade 911ST Flares (English wheel). We used the German ST flares as a template. Fronts are fiberglass.

[winders]

Originally Posted by 175K911

Stiffening the suspension via torsion bars will sacrifice daily ride comfort, the severity will depend on how big you go with the torsion bars, and what shocks you install.

I always found the shocks and anti-sway bars to have a far larger impact on ride comfort than the torsion bars.

Scott

[SpeedracerIndy]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions guys.

I'll try to respond to as many as possible. The reason I started considering any changes, is that my rear shocks are leaking oil and are original to the car, then I saw that picture I posted above. Therefore I decided if I need new shocks, I might as well do some other upgrades at the same time. I think I'll stick with my torsion bars and sways until I get better at driving, but I will have to do something with the leaky shocks. Are bilstein sports and HD's going to be ok with my stock torsions and sways?

I agree on the slippery slope! I have been pricing out all kinds of things from engine upgrades, brakes, suspension, wheels, etc. since that weekend. My bank account is not going to be able to keep up.

175K911: Got a link to any of those Audi events? I'd love to bring either car, although the Audi isn't set up for DE right now. I'm always looking for car events in this area as there aren't too many that are geared towards European cars. The muscle car gatherings are a dime a dozen around here!

equality72521: Both events I've done so far were at Putnam Park, about an hour west of Indy. Really great track for me as a beginner because it's safe. There aren't too many places that you can get into trouble on it because there's lots of runoff areas. I've done a 10/10ths Motorsports event there and a PCA event. The PCA event was top notch. I had an exceptionally good instructor and it was an incredible group of people out there. I will be attending their other events this summer and fall.

BTW, the Elephant Racing site is really good!

Thanks again.

[JeremyD]

Hate to say this - but if the shocks are leaking - I'd try and do the shocks and TB at the same time.

In fact - If they are Bilsteins - I'd send to Chuck at elephant racing or clint at rebel racing and have them rebuild and revalve at the same time.

I'd take that time to take apart your suspension and install bigger TB.

I've found that the front is more particular to ride quality and anything over 22MM and it tends to get a little bouncy.

My car is currently 22/30TB - but many have gone with 22/28's or 23/31's The higher the number and the more harsh the ride.

You can always leave the sways for when your checkbook recovers (not that it sounds like it will with a DE under your belt)

Just some advice from someone who has been there, done that, and got the T-shirt (a few times).

(I'm like Ed though - I love a new student in a fairly stock car and see their eyes open when they learn to really peddle the car around the track - usually followed by giggling)

a few pictures - stock suspension [old car]

[ivangene]

although I like the pics with one wheel off the ground it is ini fact not the best way to set up the car - though fun

your lean looks fine....try and do it faster and see if it leans more !!!

[rusnak]

Awesome pictures, you guys!