Factory Turbo Look

[TerryH]

Hello, Shopping for my 1st Porsche and have a question. How can I tell if indeed a car has the "FTL" option? I know about the cross-drilled rotors and some suspension parts, but what if the rotors aren't drilled? Does that mean it's definitely not FTL? What if the rotors have been changed? I may be looking at a car tomorrow and need to know what to look for and I'm not familiar with any Porsche suspension parts.

Thanks,
Terry

[JP911]

One way to check is by putting your hand up inside the rear wheel wells and feeling for a seam where the flares were welded on. If there's a seam then it's not a factory turbo look.

[Pettybird]

Originally posted by JP911
One way to check is by putting your hand up inside the rear wheel wells and feeling for a seam where the flares were welded on. If there's a seam then it's not a factory turbo look.

...But you'll still SEE it. ALL turbo flares were welded on at Porsche until like 89? It's in the Anderson book, I think, and my uncle's '79 930 definitely has a seam in the rears.

I'm pretty sure the dealer could tell you one way or another if you gave them the VIN. It's option code M491?


-Doug

[sc]

Terry,

These cars were made from 1984 to 1989 and from '92 to '93. If you are asking about the 84-89 years then the chassis and running gear are the same as a 930. Probably the best way to determine a real "FTL" is to look at the rear suspension/ brakes, the calipers should be 930 calipers with the short banana arms. The 930 calipers mount on the rear of the arm, as opposed to mounting on the front of non-turbo arms. Looking at either side of the car, the rear calipers are mounted on the back side(bumper side).

Just a little advice, if you are serious about any Porsche you should have it inspected by a good Porsche mechanic/ shop. Many unseen problems can be very expensive to repair and although the unibody is very strong, if damaged it must be repaired properly.

Hope this helps.

[Jadams1]

Pettybird, I couldn't help but notice your signature. You have two superbirds? Wow. I havn't seen one in person since I was in High School. Got any pics?

[Toothzilla]

Under the hood there should be a factory sticker with the options listed. M491 should be included on the sticker. I believe all of the flares were welded on until 87. I have cross drilled rotors on my TL, but I believe the factory ones were not drilled. Good luck on the purchase, I love mine!

Chris

[Eric Coffey]

The absolute easiest way to tell is by opening the hood, and verifying the 491 code on the white options sticker. Otherwise, look for the larger turbo wheels, and turbo brakes(white "Porsche" script should also be obvious). If you don't buy it, please forward the info!

[Pettybird]

Nope... no off topic cars in this post... nothing to see here... move along...

the cars all need some mild-to-moderate restoration work, but they're all very solid. The three car shot has my friend's cars, too-- his 'bird in the one on the left, and you can see the outline of his dodge daytona parked next to that. The car pictured separately is our trip car--we go somewhere, that's the car we take. My parents bought both 'birds in 1976, before I turned 1. Honestly, they're not mine yet, but they're my inheritance... sis gets the house, I get the cars. Thank god I didn't have a brother. I wrench on them just about exclusively, I have unfettered access, and mom pays the bills. Anyone wish they had that with their toys? The pink car is a newer aquisition, and is a road car that should be dark green metallic. The PO decided to jump on the retro bandwagon, painting the car like Marty Robbins' car. It's very much a street car, kinda like an IROC clone with a stock motor. "Stock" here is 7.2 liters, not 2.7, though...

The SC needs some minor work, mostly due to age. I'm planning on Carrerra side stripes and a Carrera RS tailbadge in silver, as well as painting the wheel centers silver. What do you think?

Doug

[swbsam]

believe it or not there's a turbo-look forum :

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Porsche911FactoryTurbo-LookCars/

if you are thinking of getting one you might want to check it out

[swbsam]

Originally posted by Pettybird
...But you'll still SEE it. ALL turbo flares were welded on at Porsche until like 89? It's in the Anderson book, I think, and my uncle's '79 930 definitely has a seam in the rears.

I'm pretty sure the dealer could tell you one way or another if you gave them the VIN. It's option code M491?


-Doug

actually after 85 the panels were stamped with the flares

[TerryH]

Thanks so much for the quick response, guys. I will look first for the options code in the trunk. Then check rotor position. This car is an '85, so I guess I'm hearing welding of the flares isn't an indication of anything?

Pettybird, your collection needs the Petty Torino Talledega.

Thanks again!
Terry

[NY65912]

The M491 code is not on my sticker although I know my car is factory. It's really in the running gear, turbo brakes and suspension.

Mike

[Eric Coffey]

Originally posted by NY65912
The M491 code is not on my sticker although I know my car is factory. It's really in the running gear, turbo brakes and suspension.

Mike

Hmmm, never heard of a factory TL without the option listed in the codes (except maybe for early non-production test mules). How can you be sure it wasn't just a well done conversion?

The one thing that has alwas puzzled me though is the lack of turbo tie-rods on the TL's. Why would they go to all that trouble, and not include them?

[djmcmath]

Pardon my ignorance, but is there any practical difference between a factory TL and a well-done conversion? Let's say I'm looking at a car, and the PPI says "Well, we think it was probably originally a standard car, though it's definitely TL now, but we can't be sure because the conversion was done so well." Just hypothetically, I guess...

Dan

[TerryH]

Someone mentioned before, that perhaps from the VIN, a Porsche dealer could track the cars build sheet or something similar?

I contacted the owner after the earlier posts. No 491 option listed. He did say there were drilled rotors and the rear calipers were on the back side of the rotor.

He's going to call someone at Porsche tomorrow and hopefully get some kind of confirmation.

Terry

[Pettybird]

Originally posted by djmcmath
Pardon my ignorance, but is there any practical difference between a factory TL and a well-done conversion? Let's say I'm looking at a car, and the PPI says "Well, we think it was probably originally a standard car, though it's definitely TL now, but we can't be sure because the conversion was done so well." Just hypothetically, I guess...

Dan

Anyone want to correct me here? I know the early RSR type widebodies had different rear trailing arm pickup points with the shorter arms. (once again, the Anderson book). Did they use the standard pickup points on the turbo, or were they relocated too? There was a camber problem or something--I read that bokk a couple years back.

Otherwise, until you ask Porsche, sure you could build one with a wrecked Turbo, have a A+++ bodyman do up the flares, add the bigger brake booster, etc. and make a heck of a replica. I mean, people turn '70 targas into 993 Cab widebodies, so why not?

-Doug

[Eric Coffey]

Originally posted by djmcmath
Pardon my ignorance, but is there any practical difference between a factory TL and a well-done conversion? Let's say I'm looking at a car, and the PPI says "Well, we think it was probably originally a standard car, though it's definitely TL now, but we can't be sure because the conversion was done so well." Just hypothetically, I guess...

Dan

That would be a great find, as long as the price reflected it's "non-factory" status (or else you could just buy the real deal).

The only real practical difference I can think of between the two is money. Meaning: To do a well-done TL conversion on a narrow 3.2L to the same specs/equipment as the factory cars (930 flares, extensions, rockers, spoilers, wheels, spacers, hubs, brakes, trailing arms, rear t-bars, torsion tube, paint, etc) would definitely not be cost effective. You would be better off just buying a factory TL car. However, if you just want to weld on some flares, and fill out the fenders with wheel spacers and get a mediocre paint job for the "look", then that is a different story.

[Paul491]

Originally posted by djmcmath
Pardon my ignorance, but is there any practical difference between a factory TL and a well-done conversion?
Dan

Good point, Eric. The Factory M491 option was a pretty hefty 10K-14K bump in the price of a new '84-'89 Carrera. Correctly converting a narrow body 911 to M491 factory specs is VERY expensive... Most conversions are just "skin deep" to get the "look", while avoiding the costly, unseen suspension changes and exotic type 917 calipers and rotors. The rear suspension geometry and location points were changed to keep the wider wheels and tires firmly planted on the road especially for competition purposes.

Originally posted by Eric Coffey
The one thing that has always puzzled me though is the lack of turbo tie-rods on the TL's. Why would they go to all that trouble, and not include them?

To the best of my knowledge and for some unknown reason, all FTL cars were originally equipped with standard 911 tie-rod ends. A couple of ideas come to mind...
1. Possibly, the marketing dept surmised that the buyers of "Turbo-Look" cars would rather have more comfort and less feedback.
2. Also, a subtle difference in road "feel" would then be detected between the Turbo-Look and the real 930 Turbo from a performance standpoint.

Originally posted by Pettybird
I know the early RSR type wide-bodies had different rear trailing arm pickup points with the shorter arms. (once again, the Anderson book). Did they use the standard pickup points on the turbo, or were they relocated too? -Doug

An interesting bit of trivia...
ALL 930 Turbos were built using factory Option M491. They were created by stuffing a turbo engine and stronger 4-speed gearbox into a 1974 Carrera RS 3.0 (M491) chassis calling it a "Turbo Carrera". (Interestingly, the type 917 brakes were not offered until the introduction of the 3.3 Turbo in the late seventies.) The M491 Option code has been employed ever since the 1973 2.8 RSR was unleashed and ended with the final run of 1989 930s.

Also, a good source of information can be gained by joining the
M-491 Turbo-Look Gruppe as "swbsam" suggested. It's a friendly group with good information and leads on M491 FTL 911s being offerd for sale.

Hope this helps. Give us updates on your search progress! Happy hunting.

Cheers!

[Bill Verburg]

The easiest "at a glance " method was mentioned above, look for the trailing mounted rear caliper. SC/Carrera have the rear caliper mounted in the leading position.

While the entire rear 930 suspension could have been transplanted it's very likely to be oem.

[Wil Ferch]

The altered pick-up points of the rear suspension are shared ( as far as I know) among the Turbo, Turbo-Look ( aka. Wide Body) and earliest RSR's. The RSR may have used an altered banana arm of steel (?), whereas the Turbo and TL cars used an identical-to-RSR banana arm ( geometry) made of aluminum.
---Wil Ferch