Setting up for a fast turn

[Wrecked944]

How are the techniques different for 911's with AWD (aka the 964C4)? Is it even possible to throttle oversteer with AWD?

[Zeke]

Originally posted by 1982911sc
I am coming in hot and then go to heavy, heavy brakes, slowing until I think it is near safe to take the turn (depending on conditions, elevation, surface etc). While I am on the brakes I am also on the clutch,------ as I near the apex I am into second and am off the clutch------ fast and on the gas heavy. Kind of slingshots me through the turn. Of course this is only for spirited driving!

I am not sure what is meant by "coasting" I would have to say I am doing anything but. Let me put it more simply, how about gas, brake, gas. I think coasting would be kind of doing nothing letting the car go on its own? I am way into gear before I even start my turn.....maybe I need to repost my original thougth more clearly? Actually I was hoping to read how others may approach a turn, however I have not had one real response only critiques.

I think where I highlighted is where the confusion is. What people are saying here is that you should not being doing anything close to the apex that would upset the car. This includes completing a shift.

You want a driving description? OK. I approach the turn on the outside line looking at the apex. I brake and downshift, let off the brakes, put my foot on the gas and bring the engine to a constant speed equal to the road speed. No confusion here, the car is in gear and the clutch is out. The car is neither decelerating or accelerating. I maintain this constant speed as I start the turn in. This should all come to completion exactly when turn in begins. Trail braking is an exception and will continue for a few more feet into the corner. Once nearing the apex, which is on the far side of the corner arch, I apply some more gas. As I get right at the apex, I increase the gas if I can to test the car's traction. As I pass the apex, I roll into the gas as much as the car will take expecting full throttle as soon as 3/4 way thru the turn. I am also turning straight or unwinding the wheel as my power and speed increase. Straighten out, shfit up and get ready to do it again.

[1982911sc]

Thanks Zeke, good description! A couple of questions, when you downshift is the car actually slowing anymore in addition to the braking you have just completed? When you say you are matching the road speed this is post braking I asusume? You have to be very close to the turn at this point, aren't you sort of transitioning from decelleration to accelleration? Thanks again!

[Zeke]

Originally posted by 1982911sc
aren't you sort of transitioning from decelleration to accelleration?

Let's start there; yes, in performance driving, you're always either gassing or braking ecxcept that brief moment of getting the car into the turn and "set" on it's suspension. Any abrupt movements at this point will put the car out of control as the car is on the edge of adhesion. The braking and donwshifting is done simultaneously and completed before setting the car in the turn. Thus, "heel and toe" as your are using the right foot for two jobs at once, braking and matching engine speed to road speed for the gear selected.

As mentioned, advanced drivers will brake into the turn some, called "trail braking," which is a technique to get the front wheels to bite if needed, or allow the back end to rotate into the corner. By standing on the gas and turning out of the corner, the opposite effect takes over and straightens the car out. This is very tricky driving and I can tell you I'm no master at this in a 911.

911s are driven differently from one person to the next and are a differnent creature between the autocross course and a high speed track. Some of the manuvers I'm talking about are not for every situation. Braking in a straight line while downshifting getting ready to turn in probably never got anyone in trouble unless they just didn't start soon enough. If you get to the corner at the correct speed, have a smooth arch that brings the car down to the apex of the corner w/o corrections, you have a good chance of coming off the corner w/o any wiggles and at a higher speed. We all wish we were that good. (At least I do)

BTW, my description comes by the way of enduro kart racing where I had only 16 HP to get me around the track. Any 'un'smooth driving cost in speed big time. It was all about not "pinching" the kart. Keep the rolling resistance at a minimum to take advantage of available HP. But, I didn't have any of the idiosyncrcies of 911 handling (such as throttle lift oversteer).

[Quicksilver]

A little bit to add to what Zeke has written about not upsetting the suspension.

People generally believe that the springs hold a car up which isn't very accurate. If you remove the springs from a car it won't fall through the ground and the front/rear weight distribution will be the same.

A better way of looking at it is: The springs hold the wheels down. As you shift the cars weight side to side and front to rear, look at which springs are compressed. The more you compress them the more force they can exert on the ground.
If you make slight acceleration changes in a corner you can easily see the car's front and rear rise and fall. This makes a huge difference in the cars ability to generate cornering force. If you don't have consistent cornering force you will never be able to go fast.

Wayne

[Zeke]

Well said.

Beleive it or not, the NASCAR boys got the cornering thang down. Listen to them brake into the corner and roll into the throttle twice a lap all day every Sunday. They do smooth to save gas as well. Could get boring, but they've made a science out of it. And if they aren't on the ragged edge coming off the corner, then there's no marks on the wall.

[Porschekid962]

heres what ya do, dont do it in your Pcar but something else, get into the corner hot and heavy, about 150 feet from the turn in point steer away from the corner, then back into it. as you steer back in punch the gas and yank on the e brake. as your rear end comes around go opposite lock on the steering and throttle steer the car through the corner. so much fun!!!

[svandamme]

Originally posted by 89911
Just remember the success of mastering a turn is not the set up or turn itself, its the exiting speed after leaving a turn. Do everything right and you'll see these speeds and rpm's climb.

now now , if you enter a left hand turn, from the left side of the road... you will need to lower your entry speed to prevent going out...and that will affect your exit speed... positioning is definately a big part of mastering a turn...and so is braking late and precise... exiting fast is the goal, but the other parts are vital to achieve this, can't exit properly , if your entry was crap

Originally posted by JanusCole
How are the techniques different for 911's with AWD (aka the 964C4)? Is it even possible to throttle oversteer with AWD?

AWD's suck on a track compared to a RWD just because throttle steering isn't as obvious with AWD