Ever disappointed with your 3.6?

[turbo6bar]

For guys who've installed 3.6s in your early cars, have you ever been dissatisfied with the power? Do you secretly wish you had a 930 engine? Or, is the 3.6 just what the doktor ordered?

If one bought a conversion kit and engine, do you think one could install the 3.6 in say 3 or 4 weekends?

I really enjoy my SC. I don't conceive giving up this car for at least 6-8+ years, if ever. However, I still wonder about resale (stupid worry when I paid only $10k for the car). Unclezak is selling a rebuilt 2.7 with 930 intake & exhaust. The price is $5000 outright. HP is estimated at 250. Do you guys think a 3.6 SC is worth much more than a bastard 2.7turbo SC?
Jürgen

[Tinker]

Jurgen,

When I first installed my 3.6, I thought it was the cat's meow. It's fast, has great torque and if fairly maintenance free. BUT, its no turbo. You get use to the speed relatively quickly. A turbo in an early car should be faster over 80 mph+.

I would stay away from a mag case 2.7 turbo. Sounds like an oil leak or pulled head stud waiting to happen.

A 3.6 SC is worth more than a 2.7 SC.

Tinker

[Moses]

Preservation of value is not a good reason to go with a 3.6. A quality rebuild may provide greater resale.

This is just my opinion, but the 993 motor is a very special animal. the technology in my motor is 15 years more modern than that of my car. The motor is unbelievably smooth. It starts instantly. The power band is remarkably wide. Great torque and effortless power. The motor never seems under strain. Asking a 993 motor to push around an SC is kind of a joke. It's like a day in the park for the motor. Even near the redline the engine never seems like it's working too hard.

About the 930 motor option; if given the choice, I will always choose a naturally aspirated power plant if the power is in the same range. My motor is probably around 280 HP. A turbocharged or supercharged motor with the same HP may be working harder, hotter and may be more costly and less reliable in the long run. Don't get me wrong, I love turbos. But if I'm going turbo, I want more power than I can get with a naturally aspirated motor. Just my opinion.

The truth is the first time I drove a 911 (an SC) I was surprised by the lack of power. Now the car feels like I dreamed it would.

[dwightp]

"... dissatisfied with the power?" No

"...wish you had a 930 engine?" No

"...is the 3.6 just what the doktor ordered?" Yes.

"...one could install the 3.6 in say 3 or 4 weekends?" Possible. depending on experience and limited gotcha's.

"...think a 3.6 SC is worth much more than a bastard 2.7turbo SC?" All other things being equal, I'd pay more for the 3.6 SC.


I had a choice for my upgrade. Turbo or N/A. Drove them both, talked to builders and drivers...decided on the 3.6. It was the best option for me.

Best of luck on whatever path you take!

[ischmitz]

I have not driven a turbo yet. But from what people say its power band is by no means as refined as that of a 3.6. Torque from 1500 RPM all the way up to redline and no surprises inbetween. I would not want to trade that for a smaller displacement turbocharged .

As it stands I have my hands full to keep the car under control with the 3.6. I can only imagine what a sudden boost-induced power spike would add to that equation. Not for me.

And Moses made some very good points in that the 3.6 is less stressed than a turboed smaller engine build on a weaker case.

The time it takes to install depends very much on your prep work. Go through everything the motor needs: Fuel, throttle input, oil hookup, transmission mating, mounting, electrical hookup, air, and exhaust. Make sure you have a clear path for each item in your mind, have all the required parts and have the prep work done. Just as a data point I took almost 6 month to gather all the parts (yeah, I sure took my time) and installed the electical system (DME, harness) before I even pulled the old engine. The swap itself was done in two and a half days just by myself in my garage. I started yanking the 2.7 at 5.00 PM on Saturday and had the 3.6 running on Monday after lunch working 'til midnight both Saturday and Sunday. So it sure can be done in one weekend.

Of course then the more involved items will keep you busy another year: Heat, upgrade brakes, upgrade suspension, rebuild 3.6 and on the list goes. But the bottom line is I would always do it again.

Good luck,
Ingo

Ingo

[speeder]

I'm thinking supercharged 993 motor in my SC, can't remember who sells the blower, but it's someone w/ a reputable name. It adds about 100 bolt-on HP w/ a fairly low (safe) boost and it comes on just above idle, no lag and torque curve as flat as Kansas. Rear tires could get expensive, however.

Caveat: All of this would be in some future, more cash-flow rich environment.

[JonT]

I've had my 3.6 transplant in my SC for over a year and the car is just a blast to drive every time I get in it. The power is smooth and instantaneous and can be as violent or docile as you want it to be depending on how you drive it. I would also add that no matter how much power you've got you will get used to it and want more. 275+ hp in an SC is a good place to start.

[Bill Verburg]

I had my 964 t/p for 8yrs, never got bored. Did get antsy. result? 3.8.

While they are impressive I don't like the way turbo power comes on. The only exceptions? 993t and 996tt

[Embs]

Ever disappointed with your 3.6?
Only when it wasn't running right.

For guys who've installed 3.6s in your early cars, have you ever been dissatisfied with the power? I prefer boost, but the 3.6 Variorams make an older car very fast.

Do you secretly wish you had a 930 engine? Or, is the 3.6 just what the doktor ordered?A stock 930 engine is really no better than the 3.6 Varioram IMO. It's all about what you want; large displacement, cams & grunt OR lots of boost and neck snapping acceleration. I prefer the later.

If one bought a conversion kit and engine, do you think one could install the 3.6 in say 3 or 4 weekends? Very possible if: You know what your doing, you have the right facility and tools, and you have pre-purchased all of the little parts you need / may need. Engine drops become routine after doing them 5 or 6 times. I can easily drop my engine and transmission out and re-install them in the same day. A fresh 3.6 will be no fun mated up to a worn out 915 or G50. If you need ANY suspension work you had better do it at the same time. A 3.6 transplanted into an older car exposes/magnifies every current weakness your car has, unless of course you have everything up to snuff.

Todd Embs

[turbo6bar]

Upgrade suspension?

Next weekend I'm tearing into the suspension of my SC. The 260k miles has taken its toll on the bushings. The spring plate bushings are totally failed. I'm going to use PolyBronze bushings front and rear, new trailing arm bushings, new sway bar bushings and ball joints. However, I plan to stick with stock torsion bars and revalved Bilsteins. Do you guys think this is folly, since I plan to add more power? I read Ruf used stock torsion bars and sway bars, but revalved shocks, so I figure its good enough for me. I've read the torsion bars/shock threads many times, but there seems to be no consensus on the perfect street setup. What suspension do you guys run with your 3.6?

I searched the archives for 930 dyno sheets, and the torque curve is absolutely ridiculous. It makes the 3.6 look weak, but on the other hand a 3.6 makes a 3.0 look like a Yugo engine. The plus for the 3.6 is the fire-and-forget aspect. My 3.0 makes third gear scary. With a 3.6, I imagine you could make second through fourth gears scary.

[Embs]

A refreshed stock suspension should be just fine with some new Bilstein, sports and HD's. I think stock brakes are adequate.

You need a center mounted cooler or two fender mounted coolers.

The exhaust can be a major pain. Recently I have seen the McNeil headers w/heat and muffler set-up that Instant -G sells, looks like an excellent B&B alternative.

I went with stock 993 heat exchangers and a Triad muffler. I love the sound but suspect the Triad may be hindering the top end potential just a bit. I have no data to prove or disprove my suspicion at this point. The Triad and stock 993 HE's are an economical way to exhaust the engine.

[Jerry S]

It depends what your plans for the car are....
The 3.6 will be a more refined, consistently reliable, and nice city driver motor as the torque and power are quite linear and strong.


The turbo engine, while not as "driveable" does provide a slight performance edge in stock form but miles more potential within a reasonable amount of cash spent.


Jerry S

81 930

[Joe Bob]

I would die in a turbo.....the 3.6 will break it loose in a straight line AFTER the clutch is fully engaged. But I know where it will do it.....turbos have lag that is not always predictable.

Do Iwant MORE HP....hell yes, could I use it or be capable of controlling it....No Freaking way....

[Jack Olsen]

If the rush of coming off the line like you've been spanked by the hand of god is what you're after, then a modified Turbo is the way to go. Although, honestly, if that's what you're after, something like a Hayabusa would probably be a more cost-effective way to get your spanking. The one thing you can always be sure of with straight-line acceleration is that as soon as you get used to the acceleration you have, you'll want more.

The stock 250-280 hp of a 3.6 is a blast, but it's also more or less on par, power-wise, with the motors they're putting in minivans and luxury sedans these days. A Viper comes with twice that, doesn't it?

I totaled my 911, a little over a year ago, and had the opportunity to rethink everything I'd done to it up until that point. And honestly, the one thing I didn't think needed any improving was the power. To me, a 911 is a car distinguished by the balance between its different components (power, braking, steering, suspension), and as I re-thought my car, and got opinions from a lot of other people, the consensus was that the way to make the car faster was going to be by improving the suspension, more than anything else.

Keep in mind, this was for a car with 21/30 torsion bars, adjustable swaybars, custom-valved Bilsteins and 8x10x17 wheels with 225/275 tires. For track use, especially, this suspension was still vastly inferior to the stock 964 motor I was running. Adding another 100 hp was not going to do as much for my lap times as going to coil-overs, adjustable shocks, wider rubber, and a tweaked suspension architecture.

I don't think most of us really even approach the limits of our cars' capabilities in street driving (which is a good thing). On the track, though, you can measure this stuff. In my opinion, 911's will make the biggest improvements with suspension changes. The big-hp Turbos I've seen at the track are amazing machines, but their suspensions, even as they're typically improved, generally make them slower than much-lower-hp cars where the big pieces are all in balance.

That said, a 650-hp Turbo with a great driver and a race suspension is going to be faster than the same car with only 300 hp. Power isn't a bad thing, at all. It's just that it's not everything.

[turbo6bar]

Thanks for the comments guys. I could never obtain such perspective from a handful of dyno charts.

I would have to agree with Zois, to an extent. A strong 3.0 is already very potent after you reach third gear. A 3.6 just makes more of the same, except across a wider range of engine speeds. A 930 engine, well... I envision a cash and HP pit that I might not be able to afford or control on the pavement.

I'll think things through while I replace suspension parts over the next 2 weeks. I am leaning towards a well-rounded car. One could spend $$$ on the engine alone, but what if you spent $ on suspension, $ on weight reduction, and $ on the engine. Would the sum of $ + $ + $ be greater than $$$engine? I think the answer is yes.
regards, jürgen

[ischmitz]

Jack made some very important points from a track perspective. Those who knew the late Scuffy will understand that HP is not the only deciding factor when it comes to speed on the track. A 2.4 MFI in a lightweight convertible set out and spanked cars with twice its HP. Tyson demonstrated what a well-set up car and a good driver can do. Of course Jack's car is a whole different ball game with the 3.6 and a one of its kind suspension.

On the other hand during street driving the suspension of regular cars gets hardly pushed to its capabilities. Here the feeling of speed mostly comes from straight line acceleration. Punch it coming down the on-ramp, downshift and pass someone doing 55 in a 55 zone. That's why most people that have not been to the track do not belive in suspension work as a way to make their car faster.

I think it highly depends on what the intended purpose of a car is. For a street car a powerful engine is a lot of fun. Sheer power in every situation. Once you start to think serious about the track the best bang for the buck is your suspension/tires/brakes.

As a data point my 3.6-powered Targa with less than adequate suspension, brakes and tires is 12 seconds slower than Scruffy with 2.4 MFI. Both cars weight about the same, same driver, same track, same day: Lap times of 1:34 vs. 1:46. What does that tell you.

Ingo

[Jack Olsen]

Yes, the flipside is that a track suspension will feel slower in a straight line. The reason? Softer springs will allow the car to rock further back under acceleration, more like a rocking chair with someone pulling the rockers forward. For the person sitting in the seat, it increases the sensation of acceleration, whereas the stiffer springs will reduce it.

[Mike Feinstein]

I think the magic of the swap is that the feel of the car remains in-tact. It does not feel or behave like a modified car (if that makes sense). Rather, it feels like the car could have easily come from the factory this way. My first impressions after the swap was complete were that this is how the car should have come from Stuttgart.

Of course, this is further reinforced with proper brake and suspension improvements (especially for track-use). The best part...well, one of them, is the factory reliability and reduced $$$ stress that comes with it for the long haul.