Packard 440 wires and MSD??

[avendlerdp]

I have read that MSD ignitions should not be used with solid wires. I am running stock Beru connectors and Packard 440 metal core wire. The car runs great but sometimes has a jumpy tach and misfires or even dies. Then works fine again. I already replaced the points and rotor. By the way, the last rotor fried it's internal resistor and left me dead at the side of the road. Could this be due to wires that don't work with the MSD??

Alex

[Early_S_Man]

Alex,

The wire issue with MSD is mostly hype ... many Pelicans have reported using solid-core wire without problems! I am quite sure that MSD is attempting to ward off complaints about noise in radios and stereos ...

The higher Voltage MSD produces causes problems with carbon distributor cap contacts and resistors built into rotors! The fix for the cap-to-rotor contact burning is to replace the carbon button with a brass one like MSD sells for GM caps. My feeling is that the cure for the burning problem with a 911 rev-limiting or conventional rotor would be to solder wire[s] to bridge the built-in rotor resistor.

[avendlerdp]

Sounds right. The big question is could this have anything to do with my intermittant misfires and bouncy tach? THanks.

Alex

[Lorenfb]

As I've said on other posts about the MSD and other ignitions, too much spark
voltage and energy just over-stresses the whole ignition system. Using non-solid
wire (resistive type like the plug connectors) just dissipates some of the excess
spark energy and reduces the RF being radiated affecting other electronics.

It sounds as if you've got an intermittent MSD unit causes misfires and tach
problems. It could also be a high voltage breakdown in the; wires, coil, distributor,
& spark plug connectors. Too much spark voltage will cause this.

[dhoward]

Overstresses?
The reason MSD recommends spiral wound wire is for RFI supression. RFI can cause issues other than a noisy radio. It can interfere with other electronics in proximity to the source, especially devices that use a pulse trigger for input such as electronic rev limiters.
'course, nothin' beats the Bosch....

[Lorenfb]

Spiral wound wire has little to no affect on the RF noise. You need a twisted
pair or shielding, e.g. Porsche ignition wires, to reduce RF noise.

[dhoward]

You know Loren, sometimes you make a lot of sense, but in times like this I question where you get your information. Spiral-wound wires are inductive, by nature, THAT'S how they supress RFI and EMI. Time to get out your electricity 101 book. Oh and by the way, braided shield wires, if not properly grounded, can cause more problems than they solve. While the wires function great when first installed, when the jackets break down as a dielectric, progressively more spark energy is induced from the conductors (though the cable jackets) into the grounded metal sleeves, causing the ignition coil to unnecessarily output more energy to fire both the spark plug gaps and the additional energy lost via the braided metal sleeves (no inductive resistance) . This can lead to ignition coil and control box "overstress". It can be dangerous to use these wires if not grounded to the engine, as the grounding straps will be alive with thousands of volts wanting to ground-out to anything (or body) nearby.

[Doug Steinel]

for those of us new to this type of thing, what is a "spiral wound wire"? How about "solid core wire"? Any other types out there?

[Bill Verburg]

For a nice explanation of the types of wire look here

I've had good results form the Cu or SS conductors and from the spiral wound type both from a conductive and from an RFI perspective.

If you have the ss sheath it can be reused on new 7mm wire. As has been mentioned be sure to ground it properly.

The intermittant running issues could be a bad coil.

[Lorenfb]

"Spiral wound wire has little to no affect on the RF noise."
I said little.

"Spiral-wound wires are inductive, by nature, THAT'S how they supress RFI and EMI."
More marketing hype! Please provide some numbers about RF reduction and the
inductive properties.

Everyone gets sucked into the marketing B.S. without any real testing data which
the marketing B.S. never provides!

"For a nice explanation of the types of wire look here" - mostly B.S. where's
the numbers?

The biggest benefit of spiral-wound wire is its' flexing and current carrying
abilities. No company would really use a single stranded wire anyway.

All this spiral stuff is on the same B.S. level as the multi-spark B.S.,
a lot of hype without any data to back it up.

The Technical:

The inductance of the wire only affects the rate of change of the current
flowing in the wire, i.e. the greater the inductance the slower the current
change and the longer it takes to reach its' peak value. More inductance
is a detriment to igntion wires, i.e. it slows down the spark energy
transfer to the plugs.

Wthout any shielding, inductor/inductive wiring, the radiation (magnetic
field) is not affected by the winding used. Without having some form of
a closed magnetic core (toroid) to contain the magnetic field or some
form of shielding radiation always occurs.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by Lorenfb
"Spiral wound wire has little to no affect on the RF noise."
I said little.

"Spiral-wound wires are inductive, by nature, THAT'S how they supress RFI and EMI."
More marketing hype! Please provide some numbers about RF reduction and the
inductive properties.

Everyone gets sucked into the marketing B.S. without any real testing data which
the marketing B.S. never provides!

"For a nice explanation of the types of wire look here" - mostly B.S. where's
the numbers?

The biggest benefit of spiral-wound wire is its' flexing and current carrying
abilities. No company would really use a single stranded wire anyway.

All this spiral stuff is on the same B.S. level as the multi-spark B.S.,
a lot of hype without any data to back it up..

I was going to snip this but.....
You don't seem to have a very good grasp of electrical theory.
Stranded wire has more 'current carrying' ability. More than a single spiral-wound wire. Why? Because electrons are passed through the first several layers of atoms on the surface of the conductor. Not through the conductor. Ever. More strands=more surface area=more free electrons.
Why is flexibility important? That just makes no sense. My wires aren't required to flex, except when I'm routing them when I put them on.
Marketing hype - When a manufacturer claims to increase spark energy through some magical capacitve means (Nology), or makes claims of using 'low-resistance' spiral-wound wire(simply spiral-wound with a highly conductive sheath over the spiral, thereby negating the inductive effect), that's marketing hype.
Do you really want me to teach you how electrical filtering works through induction? Go to school like I did.
But, as usual, you know everything, and should never be questioned. I can't recall YOU ever producing numbers, except when you refer to your own website.
Marketing hype? Hmmm.....

P.S. Bill's link above is excellent. Applies proper electrical theory and practice and is not hype.

[Lorenfb]

What theory? They just B.S. at the link.

I just exampled the theory. Try and get a basic electronics engineering
book. You don't need to "look" at the atoms to understand this stuff,
if you do you've gotten sucked into the B.S.

Radiation is caused by the magnetic field developed. To reduce the
radiation you MUST reduce the magnetic field exposed by; shielding,
twisted pairs, etc. A perfect example is a coaxial cable.

If what they said wasn't B.S., then they would provide something
like this:

Our ignition wires radiate 50% less magnetic energy as measured
against stock Porsche ignition wires.

XYZ Company wires - 37 gauss at 2" using ZYX Tester

Porsche wires - 74 gauss at 2'' using ZYX Tester

But they don't.

[RoninLB]

trivia..
when installing feed to marine radios it's routine to twist the
+ & - every foot.

[dhoward]

Of couse you're right, as usual. I stand corrected and will retire to my place of subserviance to the all-knowing. Why attempt to understand the physics behind anything? BTW, twisted-pair wiring was developed to reduce the capacative effects of nearly parallel conductors in close proximity to themselves, therby extending the range of high-speed digital transmission. Shielding was introduced more to prevent the ingress of noise, reducing BER.
It's like arguing with my teenagers....
avendlerdp, I'd just use twist-ties for plug wires, there's no marketing hype there.....

[Lorenfb]

"to reduce the capacative effects of nearly parallel conductors in close proximity to themselves, therby extending the range of high-speed digital transmission."

That's correct. But a twisted pair also reduces the radiation. Obviously you can't
use this technique for an ignition system. It was only mentioned as an example
to reduce magnetic radiation.

[avendlerdp]

Yow!!

Sorry to get all y'all pumped up here. I guess I can say one thing. THere is no noise issue with my stereo and even with a family band two way I used while driving my car even with these wires.

I was just wondering if my intermittent misfire and hopping tach was connected to the solid wires. De-bugging this MSD is worth it though 'cause the car runs sooo much better at under 4k rpm's.

Thanks for all the replies. Feel free to give up more theories.

Alex

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by avendlerdp
Feel free to give up more theories.

Alex

- improper MSD harness install
- bad coil
- an unusual bad tach
- internal dizzy problem
-alternator noise suppressor NG [in an external regulator system]

I assume you changed cap and rotor

[avendlerdp]

Alternator noise suppressor? Sounds viable. Where is it and what does it look like. The car is a '70t. All the other bases seem to have been covered.

Thanks

Alex

[RoninLB]

#8 is the noise suppressor. just remove and replug the harness directly into the reg. That unit may cause difficult to find probs.

[avendlerdp]

Hey, thanks for the tip. If I bypass that sucker, won't I get more noise and thus other issues? Perhaps should replace it if I could find one. Or is it an item that was needed for 1970 electronics and is now a uneless leftover?

Alex