Another RSR Clone Project
 

Hello Pelecanites!

I am in the midst of an RSR Clone project. I though I'd post a little background information to get some of you guys familair with it. I'll be asking for advice from time to time and I'll be happy to share any experience that I've had that might be helpful to any of you.

My starting point is a 1973 1/2 911T that I purchased last July in New Mexico. The car had over 200,000 miles on it but was rust free and never been in an accident. I had it checked out by a shop in Albequreque (sp?) that was recommended by the president of the local PCA who also happened to have been a former owner of the car. I drove it from Aug through Oct and then started the project. The car ran great and replicated the 20-60, 40-80 and 60-100 acceleration times listed in Excellence for the car when it was original.

My project plan is to make the car look as close to an original '73 RSR as is practically possible. I plan to drive the car on the street and to build my track driving skills to the point where I will vintage and PCA club race it.

My plan is as follows:
1. Strip the shell and remove the undercoating from the wheel wells and engine compartment

2. I've got the premier CT based 911 expert doing the body work to add fibergalss RSR front and rear flares, trunk lid and engine lid with ducktail. I'm staying with the orignal color and having black Carrera graphics added.

3. The engine will be a 3.0 SC motor that I will rebiuld myself with JE 9.8:1 pistons, 911S cams, PMO carbs and SSI's. Will run on pump gas. (250 HP???)

4. The front suspension will have a late model Carrera aluminum cross member and A arms, 23 mm torsion bars with JRZ raised spindle struts with double adjustable shocks and the S calipers that came with the car. Zimmerman crossed drilled rotors.

5. The rear suspension will have adjustable spring plates with aluminum trailing arms and 28mm torsion bars. I'm planning on the orinal calipers. Zimmerman crossed drilled rotors.

6. I'm going to rebuild the 915 gearbox with "airport gerars" and plan on using the full Wevo shifter/gate/coupler setup. Not sure about limited slip at this point.

7. Inside, I'm going with Recaro Speeds, a welded replica roll bar and the standard repro door panel and carpeting. I've stripped all the sound deading material from the interior.

8. I've got a set of four 6X16 Fuschs that I will be having modified to 16X9 fronts and 16X11 rears by the same guy who is doing my body work.

As you can see from the photos I'm into the undercoating removal at this stage. I'm using an industrial heat gun with a paint scaper followed by final removal with a Wurth DBS 3500 metal cleaning tool. What a time consuming process!!!

Anyway...I'd love to get comments/advice from any of you experts that have been down this path before me. This is my first project of this magnitiude so any help would be appreciated

Hey

I tried to include photos but my JPG files were too big. What can I do to get some of my photos out?

Do you have a paint program or Microsoft Photo Editor (it's in the Office bundle)? You need to resize your pic's and then upload.

Sounds like a fun project.

Hi,

Welcome to the board!!! Click on "user cp" at the top... You have a PM or "private message"...

Sounds like a really cool project. Can you get decent tires for 16x11 wheels? I always thought most people had the Fuchs made into 17's because of tire availability.

23/28 t bars sound, to me, like too heavy in the front. However, people do these combinations in a lot of different ways. Why not 23/30?

Jack,

While we are on the subject of wheels... aren't yours 11X15?? In terms of tire availability, would you do anything different? I'm sizing up a couple of sets of 9/11x15's and wonder if, in the long run (usability), I'll regret it and wish I had gone to a more readily available size... They look sweet no doubt, but that's alotta $$$ to plink down for wheels... especially if they become "obsolete". Whacha think?:D

Mine are 9.5x11x17's for that exact reason. Outside of concours restorations, I don't think the 15's make sense.

I'm sure this was covered before... Did you have those made Jack? What did they set you back if you don't mind me asking?

Here's a link. The price has gone up recently, unfortunately.

Yep, figured it out... Thanks Jack!!:cool:

tom1394racing,

Have good times. Your config is 95% mine. Go for it, you wont regret. I can get most of the 3.6 bastard.... :D :D :D


For your information

Yokohama deliver 285/40R15 again here in europe(I guess in US too). YOOPPPPEEEEE. Now a small stock is at home.

15 is more "fun" to drive, you get a better feeling. Only personal.

On normal road it is a way for your back to survive the track settings of the P.

9/15 and 11/15 are the historical dimensions.

Ok it doesn't help for your 16.

But Jack is right, if you have to buy wheels go for 17.

Another point is the weigth...And there is only 2 solutions that I know, Fusch(real) and BBS(magnesium). $$$$$$ :confused:

I must admit that the jack's fusch in 17 is a great solution.

Another comment, if you have no restrictions, go for carrera 2 (4 pistons) front brakes on Carrera 3.2l disks.

This setting do the job perfectly(pagid orange) and you will have a lot less problem to maintain.

phe

Sounds like a really fun project. If the end goal is a PCA racing car it will not be competitive in GT3, but I guess that's pretty far down the road for you. I would just keep in mind what you want the car to be at the end, because you don't want to have to do everything twice or three times (BTDT). For a street/DE car it will be a riot. I would say limited slip is imperative, as are larger torsions in the rear than 28. I had 21/34 combo on my G class car. Big sways would be good too.

Wow, LSD will be imperative with 11 rear tires? I'm not being a smart azz, just surprised, but I guess it would be important for hard cornering to keep the inside wheel from spinning, right?

Steve, I agree, but I guess it depends on setup. Enough sway bar and I guess you could lighten the inner wheel sufficiently. Wow, 34 rear bar....thats quite a stagger and I would think we s&*k on the street in a lightweight. I realize yours is a class car, Bobby, but it didn't sound like his was heading that way. But what do I really know, I didn't even know that a 34 would fit :), hollow I'm guessing.

Thanks to all of you who have taken an interest and replied to my post.

I'll try to respond to the points that yopu have made:

Tires- I'm planning on using 245/45R16 & 245/40R16 Pirellis like the ones that Barret Smith used on his RSR clone featured in Excellence May 2004. Anyone have any experience with these sizes??

Tbars- I'm looking for a good compromise for street/track driving. I bought the suspension from a fellow PCA club member who is converting his early 911 to coil-overs. The stock bars are 18/23 F/R so 23/28 is an equal increase in stiffness front to rear. Am I missing something??

Limited slip- I've heard differing opinions on this. For $1000 on a street car that I will learning to drive competitvely, I have been advised that I do not need to spend for limited slip. On the other hand, I'll have plenty of $$ into this car so that the extra for limited slip will not be that big an expense overall. What type of limited slip would you guys recommend?

Overall competiveness - I know this car will not be a competitve race car at this point. But I am not yet a competitve driver and I may decide to stay with a purely hot rod street car. If I get serious about racing, I will probably convert to coil-over, high comepression and twin plug race gas motor.

Keep the comments coming, I appreciate you input.

It sucks to be constrained on tires just for the sake of correctness, in my opinion. And 16's aren't even correct to the RSR. Pirellis are not very good tires.

Barret had 15's, last time I saw, and had to have grooves cut into Avon slicks to manage 'street tires.'

If you want to track the car, then 17's are the way to go. I'm sure your wheel guy can make then.

If you get a limited slip, and plan on tracking the car, the ZF one is the way to go.

I just want to point out that 18s are even better from a performance point of view, w/ aan even better selection of rubber.

the best diff is a split lockup diff which is not available for 915(yet) , next best is a ZF

Wow, 245's would work on a 9" rim and on an 11 almost unreasonable. I run 245's on my 8's...

I'm going with the 17's Jack has. Reasonably priced and can be customized for your car in terms of color match, polish or whatever...

My car's suspension was horrible for the street. It was strictly a race car, and no fun anywhere else. The lsd is imperative in any kind of competition setting, so as long the 915 is apart for a rebuild and regearing, it's the time to add one. A ZF type is the way to go. I got a ZF type from GT, made of chromalloy (sp?) with extra clutches to get to 80% (a bear in the paddock but wonderful on track). I would further suggest that if you do get serious about racing, that you buy a dedicated STOCK class race car. In GT someone will always outspend you, and you will want to be racing someone's driving skill, not their checkbook. In the stock class the fastest guys always have similar setups, so it becomes almost a spec class, and when you win it's because you outdrove the other guys.

There is a huge gap between track days and racing.

Such settings are most track days car. I mean you burn a lot of modern cars with your small old 911 and this is great fun.

But for racing, stock challenges are the best, it is better to have comparable cars between the drivers, but this is not the same story (budget,schedules,...) sadly not on my budget.


To come back on tires, forget the 245 on 11'. no good, no need certainly not possible. max should be around 9' for those tires.

By exemple I am driving 285/40R15 Yoko AVS on road (look,fun), but on track(performance) -> 225/50R15 Yoko 032R. The grip is a lot better.

Did you already try "R" tires?

7.5 and 9 by 17 are more than you need on track 225/45 and 255/40.

go for 032R, pirelli corsa, pilot sport cup. this already terrible for a SC shape/engine.

phe

Forget, but I have and I "vote" for the LSD.

This is a way to survive to the power.

If you use to drive a stock SC or Carrera 3.0, you will feel a HUGE difference.

This is not the same story to keep control of this kind of settings. I mean the limits of the car are higher, so the consequences of errors are also higher...

phe

Jim Newton?

sounds like a great setup to me Tom. Id leave the fancy diff and final suspension spec to after youve run it in and got some shakedown miles on the car, that way youve got some idea of how it drives before you start fiddling. on the tyre issue, Michelin have just started re making the classic TB15 series tyre in the correct spec size for the 2.8 and 3 litre RSR's. Im building a 73 RSR replica myself and was having BIG probs getting tyres, until these babys turned up. I ended up buying a pair of 290/40/15's. Ill post a pic of them tomorrow.

Below is a list of the current TB series tyre sizes available.


Michelin Racing Size Designation
Road legal sizes
Rolling Circumference
Recommended Rims

16/53-13
175/60R13 72V
1640 mm
5 to 6 inches

20/53-13
225/45R13 77V
1635 mm
7 to 8,5 inches

15/60-15
170/65R15 77V
1847 mm
5 to 6 inches

18/60-15
215/55R15 79V
1885 mm
6 to 7.5 inches

23/62-15
270/45R15 86V
1923 mm
8.5 to 10.5 inches

26/61-15
295/40R15 87V
1891 mm
10 to 11.5 inches

29/61-15
335/35R15 93V
1903 mm
11 to 13 inches

they are all in a REALLY soft compound but michelin will release them in other compounds if they sell well enough. Mind you they wern't cheap, my pair cost me £520 or in your money $930 a pair! Id go with the fifteens any day over the larger wheels. dont get me wrong, the big wheels look good, but for that bad-boy old school look the 15's win hands down.


Andy,

Uk

Andy, I agree that the 15's look best on the early cars. If you're building a correct-looking RS, they're the only way to go.

But if his goal is to develop the thing as a track car, he's going to be hobbling himself with the tires available in that size.

I have to say, Jack has me convinced of doing the 17" route through Lindsey.

The 15's look awesome, but there will be a day, sooner than later, that the tires will no longer be available, and for the serious $$$ the 15's cost it's not worth the problems. I'm building my car for both street and track (mostly track) and want to be able to choose whatever tire I want in the coming years. I don't want to be stuck with a sweet looking set of wheels I can't use.

The big question is how long will Michelin be making these tires? What are they going to consider "good sales" There can't be THAT many 11X15 wheels out there these days. I'm sure there are a few, but not a huge amount...

The other bonus of the 17's in they will run about 1/2 of what a good set of 15's would run. That pays for ALL of my fiberglass!!:D

Jack+Geoff, I hear ya. They are a very dear and increasingly more awkward to use. Im still gonna post the pic of my tyres though, you gotta see em!

Andy

RSR Colne Projecrt Photos
 

I thought some of you guys might be interested in some photos of my RSR clone project. The first is a before photo taken last October before I started the project
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1083232511.jpg

The sconod photo shows the car mostly stripped with the rear flares fitted as a templates. I used the templates to mark the body work before cutting back the quarter panels to facilitate stripping the undercoating from the rear wheel wells.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1083232682.jpg

The third photo shows the R/F whelel well after stripping and priming.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1083233005.jpg

What do you guys think??

i think that i wish i had them metal rear arches! Ive got an oak tree in my pants

What's the story on the rear flare pieces?

Jack

The rear flares are fiberglass from the guy who is doing the body work.
Thye're custom RSR flares like the ones he used on his Parade winning 912 RSR project/race car. I used them as templates to mark the rear quarters and then used a sheet metal nibbler to trim back the bodywork.

Ah. On the left side, especially, they're reflecting in a way that made them look like steel.

Cool project!

How much wider are the flares on a RSR vs. a Turbo (with)?

Or does it just look wider to me?

Just looks wider. They're basically the same, with the exception of the 3.0 RSR, which got another few inches.

Hey Jack - Let me ask you a question, since I concider your advice as good as any.

If you had my car
85 Black with tan Turbo look
Crome Fusch wheels with new Yoko AVS Tires
Stock motor (added K&N replacemtn filter but have stock filter still in garage)
Cat bypass
Magnaflow Muffler (single in/out)
Strut tower brace

What would you do with it if you were in my shoes?
I feel like doing some kind of conversion to it but at the same time I feel like it's as good as it can be without spending mass money for a higher displacement motor.

In other words, if you had the car in your garage tomorrow, what would you do with it?

Personally, I would take it out on a few track days -- start to learn what it's capable of.

I wouldn't change anything about it, at least initially. The Turbo-look is a gorgeous car, and the 3.2 is a pretty capable motor. If you found you liked tracking it, and wanted to improve its capabilities, you could beef up the suspension. But I'd wait at least a year before you did any of that.

Oh yes turbolook is cool.

Just had a track day at DIJON-PRENOIS (France) last sunday this is an old F1 track. Fast and fun.

They took the coolest picture of my car.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1083745178.jpg

First track day without any problem since a long time. Real dream.

OK you dont beat 993 RSR, GT3, RS cup.
Ok I have a huge work to improve my driver capabilities,
But you have many friends to play with SC, 3.2, 964, 964RS, Carrera 2.7,...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1083745893.jpg

Do not worry, 3.2 is great fun even on fast track.

phe

Thanks for the info Jack

Bigrubber... you got it bad don't you???

So, you recently purchased your car, cool. Did all the "bolt on mods" and yet heven't spent the time to learn to REALLY drive it... (or have you... you have made no comment on PCA stuff or track events.)

I agree with Jack, get it on the track and learn just what that car can do... IT WILL SCARE YOU, if you really get in it. Don't try to change what is already a really good car. Drive it to death first get used to it, and have some big fun. Then get a track car. It has taken me 7 years behind the wheel of my "stock" 3.2... I don't want to hammer my nice "driver" anymore. So, the track car it is for some real fun with a little less "worry".

geof - you are on the money when you say I got it bad.

I do want to drive my car at a track event or something. I want to smell the gas and tires burning on the track (well maybe not the gas)

I guess I just feel that my car is very mild - but then again,what do I know. I feel exacly what you mean when you say to later on buy a "track" car so I am not so concerned with ruining my daily driver. I guess I just have to make the move and actually get out on the track.

Here is one more question. can a 5 point harness be installed without the roll cage or brace?

If so then I will get a 5 point harness and look for some events this month. I was thinkingof doing the Open track event on the 19th at Willow Spings, do you think this is a good event for the rookie?

You need to get into the local PCA and do some DE's first. I'm not sure if you can just enter an open track event like that with no track experience. I wouldn't recommend it. Besides, you have no idea what to expect in that car at the limit. That's why you need to go get some DE time. It can be invaluable because you get to learn in your car. All you need are a helmet and some gloves. A five point is not nec at this point either. And yes, you need a harness bar. Go get in that seat time and then see if you think your car is tame. These cars aren't straight line dirvers. What makes them great is how fast and deep you can go into corners, the feel of the rear end hooking up in throttle steer, and what happens when your on the line in a corner and lift the gas...

PS start a new thread... so this post isn't completely hi-jacked...