Disaster

[Tspringer]

My '69 911S hotrod project is 99.9% complete. Back together, interior all in, everything set to fire it up and drive it for the first time in 9 months. This has been a MASSIVE project, I have spent over 500 hours on this car.

I went to remove the spark plugs so I could turn the engine over a bit without compression in order to get some oil circulation and pressure up before attempting to run it. Just a precaution, no big deal.

I got 5 of the plugs out.... only one left. I went to remove the plug on the left rear cylinder (viewed from the back of the car, the cylinder on the left bank at the rear of the car..... the one closest to you on the left when standing looking into the engine bay). I was using the same swivel headed spark plug socket I have used for years. It went into the spark plug well, took some wiggling around to get it to seat properly on the plug. Then I turned it until I could feel that the plug was loose and I went to pull it out.

Nope.

The extension pulls loose. I try some more. Negative. the spark plug socket will not come out. I try to thread the plug back in, but it will not. I have no reason why the spark plug will not thread back into place but an hour of trying yielded nothing.

I looked inside the plug well with my bore scope as best as possible. the plug well opens up toward the bottom, creating a square lip around the well about 1/2 way down. The round portion of the socket is down past this square section of the plug well. The round portion of the socket is binding against the square sides of the plug well when you attempt to remove the plug socket. I think this lip is where the camshaft carrier mounts onto the heads.

This sounds like a simple thing. You can easily wiggle the socket around. You can pull it outward and push it back until it reaches that lip where its binding at which point it will come out no further. It feels like it just needs to be wiggled to the right angle and it will come right out...... but there is no right angle. After 4 full hours of "wiggling" attempts using various tools it is clear to me that its not a simple thing. Its a FREAKING DISASTER.

I tried some other strategies. I got some sheet aluminum and cut to the size of the plug well. With it round, I tried to slip it down into the well along the outer edge with the hope of providing an interference sort of guide that would allow the plug socket to be removed without binding on the edge. This did not work.

I tried grabbing the socket with some tiny vise grips so I could apply some real torque at various angles and get it past the lip..... nada.

At this point, I am posting here as a last resort. Any ideas?????

If I cannot get this damn spark plug socket out of the plug well.... I am screwed.

It appears to me that the only way to remove this spark plug socket from the plug well is to remove the engine, remove the entire camshaft housing from the left cylinder bank, remove the socket and then re-assemble the heads, set cam timing and re-install the damn engine. In other words..... this is a couple of thousand dollars worth of problem.

I truely hate this car. HATE. That is a powerful word. I do not like to feel hatred. I bought this car to have a fun track and autocross machine. So far, I have had ZERO fun. Instead I am consumed with hate. I am giving very serious consideration to selling this car when its done at this point. If I could afford too... I would burn it in the driveway and videotape the fire so I could watch it and gain much future satisfaction from watching this POS burn again and again....


Terry

[tab tanner]

Try taking off the top cam cover, you may be able to look at it better. If it went in it will come out I know that you are frustrated but take a break and try it later Good luck I wish I could be more help to you If I lived closer I would come over and give you a hand. I've had this same thing happen to me a real pain in the A**, but stick with it you'll get it

[OldTee]

Relax, take a deep breath. Get some epoxy and put it on the extension and let it sit over night. Don't use too much. Then tomorrow squirt the area with WD-40 and wiggle it out. Or you could remove the valve cover.

[Grady Clay]

Terry,

Sit back. Take a deep breath. Go have something stronger than lemonade. Wait until tomorrow.

Perhaps more fiddling next week will solve it. Perhaps you might need some sort of small puller. You can remove the valve cover for better access. It should come out without disassembly of the engine.

Let’s wait to diagnose the sparkplug question.

Best,
Grady

[Tspringer]

I did get the plug screwed back in. The rubber inside the plug socket is not gripped onto the plug now either.

The socket just will not fit past the lip where the cam carrier sits on the head. Its not a matter of just not being able to pull on it because the extension slips off. I can get my small vise grips onto the connector for the socket and have a good angle to pull. I am pulling HARD. It will not budge. It comes out to a point where the round edge of the socket meets the square hole... binds up and thats it.

I am open to all ideas. I am taking a break for an hour or so to gather ideas. IF I cannot get it out this evening, Ill have the car towed to a shop for engine removal and partial teardown to remove the tool tomorrow.

Its not the valve cover that is causing the binding. I dont see how removing the valve cover would make any difference.

thanks for the support


Terry

[Moses]

It went on, It will come off. Try a different set of hands. Not better hands, just different ones. A fresh approach from a less passionate assistant may work wonders.

[Grady Clay]

Terry,

I just went and looked in an engine that is out of the car.
The only way I can see that would cause this problem is:
1) the sparkplug is crossthreaded and leaning to the left (looking in the hole) or
2) the plug wrench is larger than most in that area.

I measured my usual wrench.
The numbers are the wrench diameters.



Best,
Grady

[Grady Clay]

Terry,

You said your plug wrench has a rubber insert. Could it have come loose and be alongside the plug. That might prevent the wrench from getting back on the plug hex and have it wedged under the cam housing lip.

If you are sure the wrench is fully on the plug, is the socket extension centered in the valve cover opening?

Best,
Grady

[Tspringer]

Hey guys......

I got it out. I dont understand how. I had it with the small vise grips, rotating it while pulling HARD, in the same basic fashion I had done for 3+ hours before posting. It just came out. Makes no sense at all. Well..... actually it makes complete sense to me give this car.

This car hates me...... as much as I hate it. Every step, every LITTLE TINY project that has been required on this car has had EVERYTHING that possibly could go wrong, go wrong. Every bolt stripped. Rust discovered where there was supposed to be none. Parts did not fit. Old parts would not come out, new parts would not go in. Electrical problems that can not be tracked... and then vanish. Its like satan himself inhabits this car.

I'm going forward with getting it put together and finished. We'll see how it goes from here and how it runs/drives. I have totally restored from the ground up 8 different cars including an 2 XKE Jaguars, an Austin-Healey 3000, a Healey 100-6, a Triumph TR6, a Lotus Europa, 1 other Porsche 911, an XJ6 Jag. I have also done extensive mechanical work to dozens of the other XKE's, Ferrari 308s, Porsche 911s, Alfas, TRs, Healeys, MGs and other vintage sportscars. Of all the cars I have ever owned or worked on.... this one has been the most difficult. ITs almost bizarre its been so bad and in all honesty it has me spooked a bit on the car.

I am hesitant to take this thing on the track. Not because there is anything wrong with it at all, I have taken the time and spent over $11K in parts to ensure that this car is RIGHT. But given that this car seems to have one heck of an evil spirit.... it will be calling that wall at Road Atlanta. Cars are just hunks of metal? I alwasy thought so. This damn car however has me thinking.

Thanks again for the support and help, I really do appreciate it.


Terry

[Grady Clay]

Terry,

Naah, it’s just a piece of metal. A cool one at that.

You have been experiencing the trials and tribulations of a 35 year old 911 that wasn’t perfect and applying your standards of perfection to it. We have all done the same. It sounds like you now have a great 911.

Did you get the sparkplug out also?

Best,
Grady

[Wayne 962]

Hmm, I almost hate to chime in at this point.

99.9% of the time when I have these problems (and yes, I have them *all* the time - you're not alone) it's typically because I'm not using the right tool for the job. You cannot remove the spark plugs from a 911 (or 356) easily with a standard spark plug remover - you need one of those swivel spark plug tools like this one:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/TOOL/POR_TOOL_CAT060_pg8.htm

(NOTE - BMW SIZED TOOL LISTED ABOVE)

I would never try to remove the plugs without one of these - it's just too difficult, mainly for the reasons you cite here. Before I knew any better, I tried for hours (in the same position that you were in) to get the plugs out of my 356 (back left corner). Using the right tool made that job easy - the plug came out in 2 minutes, versus the hours I had spent trying to get the straight spark plug too in there.

These cars are tight - and they require a few special tools that you might not think of without experience. I think I recommend using the swivel sockets in the 101 Projects book too...

-Wayne

[toolman]

I had the same problem, the socket itself is too thick and hitting some part of the head. Try a "non-sparkplug" socket that has a thin wall and it will go in no problem.

[ChrisBennet]

The factory tool works pretty great but that one you sell Wayne looks pretty good. Gotta get me one of those!
-Chris

[Jens]

I use a similar socket...then I use a 3" locking extension. This little bugger locks onto the socket so the socket won't get stuck in the recesses of the 911 heads. Works absolutely great.




The little black button is the socket release/lock.

[TimT]

Well Ive never been one to disagree with popular opinion, or question Waynes advice...BUT

The plug wrench that come in the cars tool kit is amazingly well designed.... and yes it does lug nuts too!!

Im not sure if Porsche still includes this tool..

OK now the mantra.... use the proper tools...

The Hazet spark plug socket is the shizzle...It extends, destends..etc..

still I use the plug wrench that came with one of my cars LOL

[cegerer]

I'll second Tim's comments. The factory tool is amazingly simple, almost crude, yet it makes removing and installing plugs enjoyable.

[campbellcj]

I have a Hazet socket with a magnetic insert that works fine. (I think it came from Stoddard). The clearance is very tight and I can imagine that many plug wrenches could jam or not fully seat on the plug at all.

Congrats on getting it out and let us know how the car fires up and drives!

[sundaypunch]

Originally posted by TimT

The Hazet spark plug socket is the shizzle...It extends, destends..etc..

still I use the plug wrench that came with one of my cars LOL

OK, you got me. I want to get one of these. Does anyone sell this Hazet spark plug tool? Do I need to call Stoddard or does someone sell one online (Pelican?).

[Cornpanzer]

Hey Springer. How about taking some pics of this hot-rod and showing it off so that we can tell you how cool it is. Maybe some gratuitous pics and plenty of compliments will please the car so that she will start treating you better

[Tspringer]

I am back to ground zero. This car is possessed by demons. I have no question on it now.

I had the socket out. I used it to re-install the the other two plugs on that cylinder bank. As I was finishing the rearmost plug and raising up to move to the other bank, the socket with extension slipped from my hand. Where do you think it went?

Yup. I landed right on the hole for that first cylinder and sat 1/2 in and 1/2 out. I reached quickly for it.... and when I touched it it slipped back into the hole. I did not panic. I thought.... "no big deal, I know how to get it out now". I thought about how the plug was probably not tight enough anyhow so I should take the opportunity to tighten it properly, so I did and moved on with removing the socket tool just as I had done before using the small needle nose vise grip plyers. Do you think it will come out the same way it did before?

Nope.

I am now 2 hours into wiggling it, spying on it with the bore scope, trying different tools. Trying multiple tools at the same time. etc etc etc.

Did I mention that I hate this car?

I can see that the socket is coming out at a slight angle and binding on the walls of the plug well. I cannot get it to come out at any other angle.

BTW: the plug socket I am using IS a swivel headed plug socket almost identical to the one one wayne posted a pic of and Jens posted a pic of. It is a standard 13/26 swivel headed sparkplug socket that I use with a 2" extension.

I am having the car towed to a shop tomorrow. I am paying someone else to finish everything. When the car is done I will re-evaluate. IF it drives like a wonder, gives me not a single headache and the bill for all this is less than $1000 I will keep it. If I get any more issues this piece of **** is a memory. I will part it out.


Terry