Did I correctly diagnose the issue to the PermaTune?

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

I have been chasing a little gremlin for some time now. My car was idling poorly, started backfiring, and would die. I found that the fuel accumulator would allow me to blow equally from both directions. The car was running rich so she was leaned out, new plugs were added with new wires. Two of the old wires were bad. I went ahead with a new distributor cap and rotor.

Then the fuel pump got really loud (I'd always been able to hear it). The relay was hot to the touch and the car died on the way home two times in 40 miles. I let her cool down and then started back up. I removed the pump and found it's body to be corroded without paint. The electrical connections were clean. I installed a new pump this past week and have left her to idle in the yard several times for up to 40 minutes without any issues. The backfires were gone, the idle settled in nicely, everything appeared to be good.

I decided to start driving her to work again this morning. Three miles into the 40 mile trip I again lost all power. The motor just stopped. I did try to put her in a lower gear and pop the clutch but no dice. All fuses checked out ok. The relays were not hot. I could not find anything disconnected. I decided to see if the pump was working so I put the key in the on position and went to the back and could not hear anything. No whine, nothing but total silence. I lifted the plate inside the airbox to add fuel and was rewarded with a nice whine. I heard the Permatune box start up. Let down lever, no whine.

I always heard the whine before, I'm sure I did! I was receiving fuel when I lifted the plate as evidenced by the smell. The PermaTune box was hot to the touch. I turned the key back to off, disconnected the box, and blew on the connectors to clear out any dirt. I plugged the box back in, went to the driver's seat, turned the car over and drove her home.

Equipment: 83 3.0 Liter, mainly stock, PermaTune, Blue Bosch coil, original distributor, new rotor and cap, MagnaCore wires, NGK Copper plugs, new fuel relay switch, new fuel accumulator, new fuel filter (10K miles), and new Bosche fuel pump.

Testing suggestions appreciated. Should I send the box to PermaTune for testing or should I be thinking of something else?

[widebody911]

Originally posted by Groesbeck Hurricane
Should I send the box to PermaTune for testing or should I be thinking of something else?

The Great Melmac predicts the jagoffs @ PermaTune will tell you that their Magic Box is perfectly fine, and you have a problem somewhere else. Melmac recommends getting an OEM CD box and saving yourself the hassle.

[emcon5]

Originally posted by Groesbeck Hurricane
I decided to see if the pump was working so I put the key in the on position and went to the back and could not hear anything. No whine, nothing but total silence. I lifted the plate inside the airbox to add fuel and was rewarded with a nice whine. I heard the Permatune box start up. Let down lever, no whine.

I don't think Permatunes are supposed to whine like a Bosch CDI. I know mine didn't. The whine when you lifted the sensor plate shouldn't have been the permatune, as if it was going to make any noise, it should have started as soon as you put the key to "run". The whine may have been the frequency valve for the lamda system.

What you describe with the engine stopping sounds exactly like when My Permatune gave up the ghost. Engine quit, tach dropped to zero. It happened to me 2 or 3 times where I was able to get it restarted (while still moving) by turning the key to "off" momentarily, then back to "run" and let out the clutch to bump start it.

Do you have an inductive timing light? That is an easy way to check for spark by yourself. Just clip it on the coil wire, the cords are usually long enough for you to reach the key to try and start it. No flashing light=no spark.

Tom

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

The Great Melmac is most likely correct, again. I should have given the answer so the question would have been correct

Tom,

I always had a whine in back when the ignition was in the on position. Hmmm, could the frequency valve for the lambda system be bad? I need to find out how to test that!

Yep, we had/have the same symptoms. What did you replace your PermaTune with?

I do not have an inductive light, but might be able to borrow one.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

After doing alot of reading, I'm thinking of buying a re-built Bosche CD box and a new coil. I could always keep the PermaTune and Blue Coil as paperweights for the repair books. I do not have the original Bosche CD, the 2nd owner (PO) did not pass it along.

My second choice would be a new PermaTune with the internal coil, but I'm leary of PermaTune with many of the posts I've read.

The MSD seems to be out of where I am wanting to go.

Is this a reasonable train of thought?

[emcon5]

Originally posted by Groesbeck Hurricane
Is this a reasonable train of thought?

That is what I did.

The only problem is the rebuilders want a rebuildable Bosch core, so you need to scrounge around and find one, or a good used Bosch CDI.

Tom

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

I downloaded the bench test procedures from the Perma-Tune site. According to the multi-meter, the coil is bad and the Perma-Tune box is working at the lower end of the spectrum. I would assume that this is my issue. Guess I am going to see if I can get a re-build Bosch and a new coil. I just feel safer that way...

[no substitute]

Rule 1:
"Most of the parts you can buy aftermarket to replace what Porsche originally used, are of lesser quality. That is why Porsches cost as much as they do in the first place."
Many of us have had the exact same Permatune experience, including the denial that it is their fault. They will charge you to test it, and offer to keep the box to save you the return shipping.
Widebody's words (et al) are most wise. SEE RULE 1.
You may not need a new coil, Warren can no doubt answer this question.

[fintstone]

The reason that most folks have a Permatune is because their Bosch failed. Apparently neither CDI is all that reliable. If I was inbstalling a Permatune unit, I would prefer a unit with separate coil so if the the coil fails, that is all I have to replace. I also suspect it allows the unit to operate cooler that the combo unit with less liklihood of high voltage damage to the electronic components in the CDI unit.

[fred cook]

If you have any trouble finding a Bosch CDI unit, consider using an MSD ignition unit and coil. I put an MSD M6A unit and matching coil on my SC for about $180.00. It works well and is easy to install.

Fred Cook
'80 911SC coupe

[no substitute]

Originally posted by fintstone
The reason that most folks have a Permatune is because their Bosch failed.

In general that's probably true, though not in my case. I wonder how long the Bosch units typically last before replacement is necessary. My Permatune started acting up as soon as the weather got into the seventies (about six months after purchase). BTW the power increases are a myth, as others have also stated. It does sound as though the MSD unit is relatively trouble free.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

The MSD and High Vibration Blaster Coil are here and getting installed tonight. I'll post how well this all goes. Guess I'm in for some fun tonight!! Hopefully driving tomorrow, if the weather holds.

[targa911S]

My goal in life is to spread the word about Permacraps. There is a guy in Texas that can rebuild your Bosch if it has the epoxy "button" on the front. For some reason the riveted ones are not rebuildable. He charges around $100.00. Look in Excellance for his ads. I don't call to mind the name of the place but I remember his ads were in red. I'll look when I get home and repost his name. Other wise just get a used Bosch box. They are out there for under $200.00.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by fintstone
The reason that most folks have a Permatune is because their Bosch failed.

Acutally, I think a lot of people replace their CDI unit with a permatune as result of chasing ignition-relatied problems. Most, if not all, never put the OEM CDI back when it didn't fix the problem, after having coughed up $XXX for the PermaTune, and no parts house will take back electrical bits. They probably also deluded themselves into thinking the PT was a "known good quantitity" in their problem solving.

That's what happened to me. Luckily, I'm a packrat, and I had it saved in a box somewhere. My ignition problem turned out to be the wiring between the distributor and the coil. I wired that section, and my problems went away.

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by no substitute
Rule 1:
"Most of the parts you can buy aftermarket to replace what Porsche originally used, are of lesser quality. That is why Porsches cost as much as they do in the first place."
Many of us have had the exact same Permatune experience, including the denial that it is their fault. They will charge you to test it, and offer to keep the box to save you the return shipping.
Widebody's words (et al) are most wise. SEE RULE 1.
You may not need a new coil, Warren can no doubt answer this question.

Two things amiss with the above statement:

- Permatunes were installed as OEM equipment from the Porsche factory. Pelican co-owner number two (Tom) had one installed on his 1974 911, brand new from the factory.

- Permature will test any unit free of charge.

-Wayne

[no substitute]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
Two things amiss with the above statement:

- Permatunes were installed as OEM equipment from the Porsche factory. Pelican co-owner number two (Tom) had one installed on his 1974 911, brand new from the factory.

I have heard of this, and of course I believe you. However in my car I had Bosch, and the Permatune unit is in fact of lesser quality as it failed rapidly despite my vehicle passing their ground tests. Other's have had similar results. Perhaps this is why they use Bosch units. My ancient Bosch unit still works. Also Permatune's claim to power increases doesn't appear to be substantiated. I would have loved it if it did everything they claimed. It didn't come close, and they seemed unconcerned.

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
- Permature will test any unit free of charge.

Fair enough.
Perhaps I am thinking of shipping charges if I want the box returned to me.

[azasadny]

PermaTune tested my bad unit and didn't charge me for it. Since it was out of warranty, I bought a new one in July of 2002 and have not had a problem since. Mr Lenarduzzi (sp?) from PermaTune was a very nice, patient guy and he walked me through the entire troubleshooting process.

[Lorenfb]

"- Permatunes were installed as OEM equipment from the Porsche factory. Pelican co-owner number two (Tom) had one installed on his 1974 911, brand new from the factory."

1. Porsche used them for only one year and then went back to Bosch.
2. Perma-Tune re-designed the unit (silver vs blue) which resulted in a less
reliable unit, e.g. highly intermittent with temp.
3. Few if any independent shops use Perma-Tunes, since being "burned" by their
poor reliability.

MSD units potentially have less reliability than Bosch because of the increased
component count vs the Bosch unit. Additionally, the multiple sparks have
questional value, i.e. no test data to substantiate their claims. Also, MSD units
are not a direct replacement for the Bosch, i.e. mechanically or electrically.
Many Bosch units have been in use for over 30 years.

There are many sources for rebuilt Bosch units, one of which is Pelican.

[Wayne 962]

I have heard arguments for and against Permatune. Based on my own opinion only, I think that the Permatune units get somewhat of a bad rep. They are often swapped in when there is an ignition problem, and if the problem isn't with the Bosch system, then they are swapped into a broken or troublesome system.

Lonnie Lenarduzzi (Permatune) does seem to have an uphill battle in the Porsche world.

Here is some info he sent me a long time ago when this issue came up:

"
972 442 6774 is the tech help phone line, direct.

service@perma-tune.com is the tech help e mail.

Perma-Tune will analyze any ignition ever made under the Perma-Tune name
free of charge. Refer to our warranty for more info. Please ask customers to
contact us for a reference number before sending their units in for testing.

Here is a link to our warranty.
http://www.perma-tune.com/Warranty.htm


Here is a link to our serial number code.
http://www.perma-tune.com/manufacture_date.htm"

Lennie sent me the following info as well:

"Furthermore, for every Bruce Anderson out there I can show you 100 people
that have the opposite opinion about Perma-Tune. For starters, just ask the
guys at Gunnar Racing what they think. The reason they chose to put our
products on 917 and other priceless Porsche cars is because they understand
the technology. We support our product and help them win races, the bottom
line.

Want more? Jerry Seinfeld and Bobby Rayhaul (Spelling?) both love how their
cars run with my box. Bobby is putting them on all his Porsche and Ferrari
cars after we did his 917. Jerry liked how his 911RSR ran so he is putting
them on his 917. The list goes on and on but you get the picture."

Just posted for FYI only...

-Wayne

[Lorenfb]

"Want more? Jerry Seinfeld and Bobby Rayhaul (Spelling?) both love how their
cars run with my box. Bobby is putting them on all his Porsche and Ferrari
cars after we did his 917. Jerry liked how his 911RSR ran so he is putting
them on his 917. The list goes on and on but you get the picture."

I'm sure that neither of these two made the decision to use PermaTune.
If so, they need to stick with their professions and not do Porsche mechanical
work. As for their mechanics, both should consider finding new mechanics!

Remember, when using a PermaTune always carry a spare and avoid driving
your Porsche in hot weather.