Stupid Q of the Day - Not installing the Pressure Plate

[cab83_750]

If I do not install the pressure plate, will there be NO load to the engine when starting the car?

In other words, would the engine turn freely as if the transmission is in neutral?

Thank you.

[ewave]

Yes. The car would always apear as if it was in neutral.

[Rot 911]

But how would you start the car as the starter ring gear is on the pressure plate?

[cab83_750]

Oops, I meant not installing the clutch.

You are definitely right. The ring is on the pressure plate.

[speedkillz]

Well someone had to ask...WHY????

[cab83_750]

Congratulations! I was waiting for the gutsy one to ask the 'why?'


My rebuilt 3.3 (now about 3.5/100P&Cs), with a high-torque starter, would not turn easily. It turns, but very very very very slow. The only way it would turn easily is when some of the spark plugs are out---as always and before, it would not start.

I could manually turn it with the factory wrench. So, I am investigating if the 'extra' load is from the clutch/tranny/or what-not!

[geof33]

Unless the clutch is installed incorrectly, I would think that would be moot. If the car is in neutral it should turn, albiet hard with compression.

Am I missing something here?

[911pcars]

Some things to check:

Battery state of charge (a weak battery can rotate an engine w/o plugs; harder against compression)

Check the ignition timing (using static methods). If the timing is severely advanced, this could create difficulties in cranking w/plugs installed.

Hope this helps,
Sherwood

[cab83_750]

Battery is spanking hi-amp brand new. We are talking about 2 weeks old. And yes, I checked it and even trickle-charged it.

Sherwood,

What is static method? Is it in Wayne's book? Please elaborate!

[911pcars]

Cab,
Not sure if it's in Wayne's book.

Since the car can't start, you can't set the ignition timing using a traditional timing light while the engine idles.

However, you can use a timing light and/or spark from number 1 plug wire to let you know when the spark occurs relative to the crank pulley timing marks, albeit at a very slow speed.

If a timing light isn't available, remove the plug wire from #1 spark plug, stick a screwdriver blade or equiv. inside so a spark can jump to ground. With the ignition ON, rotate the engine manually or bump the car forward in 5th until you see a spark jump to ground. At that instant, stop and look at the alignment of timing marks on the crank pulley and engine case. That's where/when the spark is happening. The same thing happens at 900 rpm except now you're observing the event in slow motion, real slow-mo.

If it's within a few degrees of where it should be, that should be okay. This probably isn't the problem. If it's substantially off (I assume you installed the distributor correctly?), then perform the above operation, basically backwards: Align the proper timing marks, then rotate the distibutor housing counterclockwise a bit, then clockwise (opposite direction of rotor rotation) until a spark jumps to ground from #1 plug wire. That's static timing. Lock the distributor down. Double-check using one of the above methods. If the timing was way off, the engine should now crank easier.

Let us know if this stab in the dark works,
Sherwood

[cab83_750]

Sherwood,

I have a timing light with advance feature.

I believe I installed the distributor correctly. The engine in question is a turbo engine. I used the same steps I used to replace the distributor on my SC, which are:

Rotate the pulley at about 0 degrees.
Position the rotor so it points at the notch.
Carefully drop the distributor and wiggle the rotor slowly so the spline would line up.

Let me know if I am missing something.

I'll double check tomorrow using your method(s).

[911pcars]

Make sure the #1 piston is at TDC ready to fire (both valves closed) when you drop the distributor in position. Everything else seems fine. Let us know.

Sherwood

[jmohn]

If the starter motor is "weak" (could happen, even if it's new and "high-torque") you would have this isssue.

Good luck,

Jerry M
'78 SC

[David]

Sounds like bad battery cables and/or ground wire.

[cab83_750]

Jerry,

Nope. I have used 2 h/t starters, and 1 factory bosch unit (total 3).
Definitely not the starter.


David,

Not the the cables/ground, etc. I have connected numerous jumper wire sets connected directly to the engine and tranny, just to supplement the regular electricity path.



VERY IMPORTANT .......

As this is a give and take community, let me share my info with you guys. A few weeks back, I was not getting spark. After some effort, the green wire from the ditributor was failing the continuity test. I was about to yank it out but decided to determine where it broke.

I checked end-to-end...... failed!
I checked end1-to-middle.....failed.
I checked end1-to-1stQ.......failed.
I checked end2-middle........GOOD!
I checked end2-to-1st Q......GOOD!

As you may haved guessed it. Although the crimp and wire looked good, they were not really making contact. After opening the crimp, sanding the wire and the crimp, recrimped......everything checked out.

[RichardRWatson]

Do you maybe have a cam timing issue ?

Did you check C/R / Deck height etc when assembling ?

Rick

[ewave]

Questions:

With all the spark plugs out does it turn at what you feel would be sufficient speed to start to engine? Without the spark plugs does it sound like the normal speed of an engine trying to start?

What I'm getting at is what does "very very very very slow" really mean?

I'd try to figure out whether the slow turn over speed is being caused by really high compression, or if it is being caused by internal friction.