1986 Suspension Refurb / Upgrade

[Highfield]

Am based in the UK and looking for some Pelicanite help on my planned suspension refurb / upgrade later this year on my 1986 Boge equipped 911 Carrera.

Have discussed over here, and am leaning towards the following setup :-

Front Suspension -
New Polygraphite bushings (would like Elephant but probably too costly) - whos should I buy ?
Turbo Tie Rods
Weltmeister Strut Brace (Cambermeister")
Bilstein HD inserts for the Boge Struts
22mm Torsion Bars

Rear Suspension
Neatrix spring plate bushings (again Elephant probably too costly)
Poly trailing arm bushings
Bilstein Sport Shocks
29mm Torsion Bars
21/22mm anti-roll bar

I am currently on 6 & 7 X 16 Fuchs - will 8 X 16 rear be better ?

I am on a tight budget (aren't we all), and apologise for posting such a long post and question, but I value input and preparation before doing my work.

Can I source any of this from the USA with reasonable shipping to the UK ?

Help much appreciate, and thank you.

[golfnow]

Hello Ian
I’m hopping to see what everyone has to say about your
planned suspension upgrade my self. I have to do
A little upgrading also.

Mike

[jyl]

If it were me I'd think "from the inside out".

Start with the hardest-to-access bits (like the trailing arm bushings, then the spring plate bushings, then the a-arm bushings, then the torsion bars, and so on). Spend the money necessary to get those exactly how you want them (like the Elephants instead of simple poly). If you run out of money before you get to the easiest-to-access bits (like the strut brace, maybe the anti-roll bars), then just do those another year when you have some extra cash and a couple of spare hours. This will save you from, in two years, deciding you really want the better bushings, and then having to tear the whole suspension apart all over again in order to get to the damned bushings as well as pay for another alignment or corner balance.

I've never heard anyone else advocate this approach, but it makes sense to me. Stripping my suspension completely off the car was a fair bit of work - avoiding unnecessarily repeating that is worth quite a lot to me.

Anyway, I did the bushings using Elephant's stuff, also monoballs front and rear, Bilsteins SPs, new ball joints, turbo tie rods, bump steer kit, cleaned and repainted everything, replated the spring plates and hardware, and got a align / corner balance. It made a big difference and I'm happy to drive it this way with the stock torsion bars and anti-roll bars for a couple of years. When I get around to changing those, probably after I decide whether to get more serious about AX or DE and whether to upgrade the wheels and tires too, it'll be easy as pie.

[Highfield]

Thanks John - nice thinking - anyone else advocate this move ?

I was planning on removing the entire front suspension in one - can this be done, or does it need to be removed bit by bit.

Anyone does this with pictures to help - I have Wayne's 101 book.

Anyone have any good used parts that can be shipped to the UK.

Thanks for the help,

[Highfield]

John,

You re-plated the spring plates. I have seen pictures of these (gold looking) - is this what you had done. What exactly is it that needs to be done - i.e. what plating service to I need to llok for ?

[Highfield]

Bump

I really loike the look and write ups on the Elephant parts.

However, at close to $500 (plus shipping to the UK) they are the same price as buying new Bilstein Shocks all round.

Shocks will I guess make a big difference to the feel of the car, where the Polybronze will do less so.

Guess it is a question of economics, or looking long and hard for some good used shocks - are there any out there ?????

Also appreciate any input on the 8 X 16 as opposed to 7 X 16 rear wheel size question.

[MichiganMat]

For a Carrera with flares, idealy, you should be running 951 8x16s and 9x16s. I run 7x15 and 8x15 on my narrow body, you should run bigger meat with those flares.

[cowtown]

I am doing trailing arm bushings right now, and everything I have read indicates that poly is not good for these. Monoballs or stock are good, because they let the trailing arm move in the correct dimensions.

I also skipped the hard poly springplate and a-arm bushings and am going with polygraphite in the hopes that they will squeak less.

If money's no object, the Elephant stuff is A-1.

[Highfield]

I have the narrow body Carrera with 6 & 7 X 16 - looking to go 7 & 8 X 16 - thanks.

Colin - what brand of graphite are you going with. I cannot run financially to Elephant monoballs for the trailing arms, so no real option here.

Any other suggestions re: brands / costs appreciated - plus pictures of on-going suspension work.

I have my car on the driveway, so need to get the suspension off there and in to the garage (not that big, but dry and has a bench).

[Chuck Moreland]

Originally posted by jyl
If it were me I'd think "from the inside out".

Start with the hardest-to-access bits (like the trailing arm then the spring plate bushings, then the a-arm bushings, then the torsion bars, and so on). .......

I've never heard anyone else advocate this approach, but it makes sense to me. Stripping my suspension completely off the car was a fair bit of work - avoiding unnecessarily repeating that is worth quite a lot to me.

I've never heard it called "inside out", but the term is fitting and the logic sound. For anyone on a budget, I recommend doing all the things that require ride height/corner balance / alignment in one phase. Use the best available parts the first time; do it once, do it right.

The real cost of replacing the buried parts of the suspension is in the labor. Going cheap on the parts won't seem so smart if you have to tear it apart again to do it a second time. Penny wise, pound foolish.

The bolt ons can always be added later when the wallet recovers. This is the same as the "inside out" approach.

[cowtown]

Originally posted by Highfield
Colin - what brand of graphite are you going with. I cannot run financially to Elephant monoballs for the trailing arms, so no real option here.

Using GPR polygraphites on Pshrup's advice, because Pelican doesn't stock polygraphites from what I could tell. They look good but I have not driven on them yet.

PP does have both the OEM and Elephant monoballs for the trailing arms, though. Don't use polygraphite in the trailing arms.

Costwise, the OEM trailing arm bushings and monoballs are similar. There's no deal to be had there.

[Highfield]

Chuck - Have sent you an e-mail direct with queries - you came highly recommended by a couple of track day guys over here.

Thanks for the other replies, and please let me know if you have anu good used bilstein HD/Sport shocks - cannot run to new if going Polybronze !

[jyl]

The plating was "yellow zinc", was recommended to me as the closest thing (in looks and durability) to the original cadmium plating, as cadium plating is expensive and hard to find in California (for environmental reasons). I forget what the plating cost - maybe $100? perhaps I said in my earlier post - the bigger "cost" was my labor to remove, disassemble, clean, and strip (wire-brush in a drill) the parts.

Originally posted by Highfield
John,

You re-plated the spring plates. I have seen pictures of these (gold looking) - is this what you had done. What exactly is it that needs to be done - i.e. what plating service to I need to llok for ?

As for the shocks, maybe you could find some used Bilstein shocks and Bilstein inserts for Boge struts from a Porsche dismantler or from some Porsche racer who is upgrading his suspension to the fancy stuff, and send them to Bilstein for custom revalving. Not sure if this is economical, but may be worth looking into.

Finally, I'd try to get a ride in another 911 w/ similar suspension upgrades, on the kind of roads you usually drive. Maybe visit the local Porsche club or AXs. If you find the uprated t-bar/roll bar you have in mind is too stiff for your personal use/taste, you'll have saved yourself some money.

[Highfield]

John L. - thanks re: plating.

I am going to a track day on 14th August and hope to get a ride in a few different cars to 'feel' how they drive. As you say, nothing spent but may save getting the wrong setup.

Will do a wanted ad. for the parts in other classifieds forum.

[Grady Clay]

Ian,

Tyres make the most difference. The wider wheels are necessary to properly support the tyre. With great tyres the suspension needs to keep them under control.

I agree with John and Chuck’s “inside out” approach. There are several things that, when you have everything apart, should be done at the same time: Suspension bushings and torsion bars. That includes ball joints, tie rod ends, spring plates, etc.. Do it right the first time. Your stock sway bars will work great. Perhaps add an adjustable link F&R for proper corner balance.

If the shocks are still serviceable, leave them alone. If not, replace them with appropriate shocks.

Shocks and sway bars are easy to deal with without upsetting the basic suspension.


Best,
Grady

[dickster]

Ian,

I started with shocks. mine were shot and replacing them does not necessitate an alignment. i got them for a really good price - i may be able to dig out supplier (uk). you do not want secondhand ones.

then as everyone said it is best to do the other stuff in one hit. i spent a year or so collecting parts. i had most of mine shipped from the usa.

22/31 sanders t/bars
polybronze front bushes (oringinally bought poly but decided to change them)
neatrix rear (would do poly bronze now)
turbo tie rods and ERP drop links (these two have made the biggest difference so far - and you could do these and just have the tracking set).

i just have to do the front bushes and then get an alignment (drives great as it is but i do not do great mileage - rear camber is at 4 degrees+ so not good for tyre wear).

when i get that done i will have the oe trailing arm bushes installed.

lastly i'll get some bigger ARB's (probably smart racing).

not sure about the value of strut braces (esp. in a coupe) - unless you're a serious track day addict - jmho.

should be a blast by then!

good luck.

[Highfield]

Thanks Rich, if you could let me know the UK supplier for Shocks that may help in containing the budget.

Interesting to read you have decided on polybronze all round, but not the rear monoballs. Was this a budget decision, or are the trailing arm bushings in good order.

Agree re: strut brace, but will spend time as you did accumulating parts, and I have been offered one at a fair price though.

I am going to Walton Hall meeting this weekend.

[dickster]

ian

you have a pm

[Highfield]

Originally posted by Highfield
Chuck - Have sent you an e-mail direct with queries - you came highly recommended by a couple of track day guys over here.

Chuck kindly replied to my e-mail, and I hope the sound advise can be read by others :-

Hi Ian

Let me try to answer each question:

Q: First off, am I advised to remove the suspension in one piece, or would you dismantle it section by section from the car. Shaun 84 Targa did some nice pictures of all the removed parts.

A: I find it easiest to take it off in major peices. First the brakes, then seperate the ball joints, pull the torsion bars, then the control arms.

Q:
Install NEW Elephant Racing Polybronze bushings on to freshly painted a-arms (from you or Pelican?).
A: I can provide them direct

Install NEW Turbo Tie-Rods
A: Good

Source and install USED 22mm Solid Torsion Bars (sell 18mm standard if OK).
A: Used tbars are fine if they are not showing signs of rubbing or rust.

Source and install USED Bilstein HD Shocks into repainted 1986 Boge Struts (sell Boge shocks).
A: Be careful about the used shocks. It's okay if you know they are low mileage, but this is a wear item so if they are over 20k miles I would get new.

Install OEM Anti-Roll Bar bushings if required (thru body bar one day if I get funds)
A: Good

Install NEW Stainless Brake Pipe Kit
A: Good

Rebuild and Paint Brake Calipers with seal rebuild kit and new spring plates / retainers.
A: Normally you don't need to replace the spring clips and retainers, and they are expensive for such little bits.
A: I would also replace the wheel bearings. Easy to do with the calipers off and not too expensive.

New brake pads if required (any suggestions for road and occasional track use)
A: Pagid blue is a good pad for mixed road / light track use.

May install strut brace later (Weltmeister / Elephant - advantages please ?)
A: I don't recommend the weltmeister. It attempts to clamp the top of the strut and hold it stationary. They sell this as a benefit but it is a very poor design. The strut top MUST move as the wheel moves up and down. The result is a lot of stress on the strut, mount, and strut brace. Sometimes the weltmeister product cracks in time.

Top strut mount will be left as standard factory rubber (really cannot justify monoballs)
A: Fine provided the rubber is in good shape.


As for the rear, this is where my knowledge is not so good, so here goes :-

Install NEW Elephant Racing Polybronze spring plate bushings.
A: Good

Install new wheel bearings (I know I need one, so will do the pair - not easy I know)
A: Good

Source and install USED 29mm Torsion Bars (sell 25mm standard if OK)
A; Same answer as for front tbars

Source and install USED Bilstein Sport Shocks (sell Boge shocks)
A: Same answer as for front shocks

Leave brakes as is, but perhaps install speed bleeders.
A: I'd rebuild them. You are doing the fronts so it's easy to do now and the rebuild kits are really inexpensive.

Leave anti-roll bar as is for now.
A: Fine

Do I need to remove the trailing arm to do this, and if so, do I destroy the bushings. Someone on Pelican said that OEM rubber bushings are as costly as Elephant Rear Monoballs - is this true ? I really cannot afford this.
A: You can replace the trailing arm inner bushings and rear wheel bearings with the arms on the car. But it's easier to do both jobs on the bench, and you are taking apart the whole rear suspension anyway. So there is no reason to try and do them in place.
A: Trailing arm bushings are not destroyed when you remove the trailing arms. They are destroyed when you remove them from the trailing arms.
A: Factory trailing arm bushings are about $180 / set. Elephant Monoballs are $200 / set unsealed, $250 / set with weather seals (highly recommended)

If I have to replace the trailing bushings, I have a problem. Can I remove and re-install trailing arm without changing the bushings ?
A: Yes, see above

As for brakes, I have been advised to get a hold of some Smart Racing front brake cooling ducts and disc deflectors ! This keeps the brakes nice and cool - do you have any views or items of your own ? Again, a luxury that can wait perhaps.
A: Given your budget, this can wait. You may not even need it, ever. Until you are experiencing brake fade on the track, don't worry about this. I don't even have these on my race car, yet.
A: Do use a good high temp brake fluid like ATE Blue or Motul. Do use good performance pads.

I would hope the above would achieve a car that can be used on the road (5K miles per year say) and occasional track use without being too firm and uncompromising on the road.
A: I might suggest 21mm/28mm torsion bars given your mostly street leanings. The 22mm/29mm is a good balance, but biased towards track performance.

Thanks to Chuck for taking the time to reply to all my questions, and hopefully informative for others embarking on their first real 911 job.

[dickster]

but not the rear monoballs. Was this a budget decision, or are the trailing arm bushings in good order.

i havent checked but i would expect the bushes to be shot. i would expect to source them much cheaper than paying for $250 mono's (plus post/import duties) - if not i will consider the mono's.

*edit* i have checked the prices. i can get oe bushes for £85 against £150+ post/duties for mono's. i'll stay with oe!

fwiw - i went with 22/31 t/bars and they are very stiff. they are hush on bumpy lanes but on faster stretches and m/ways they are great - i'm happy with them.

i'm the same - couple thous' road miles plus track, but i wanted better track performance - you can't gun it on the road anyway?!