88 Carrera dyno results! chip vs. no chip

[dickster]

the numbers highlighted on the plot don't tell an accurate story. As rdane pointed out, the peak is shifted by the chip. It isn't fair to pick an arbitrary rpm number and look at the difference there. You need to look at the absolute max from each, which is listed in the text giving a 10.5hp difference, although I don't know how many significant figures can be carried since there aren't multiple runs and there isn't information given for the typical std deviation/precision of the instrument. 0.1%? 1%? 5%?

thats a good point todd.

i missed that first time round reading the numbers off the graph. so overal theres around 12hp gain (the same as i got on a stock motor swapping cat/muff). i would have to change my previous statement and suggest that most of that came from the cat. swap - probably about 8hp, which is the number i got here:

at last dyno figures for 1986 3.2 with dansk premuffler/sport 2 out muffler

please note that the gain was throughout the rev range. swapping the muff for a sports one saw another 4hp but only at the top end.

take it for what its worth

[ScottKelly911]

I can't find the Steve W chips that are for the 90-94 3.6 liter. any graphs or info on this chip? I have early style SSI's, K & N Intake & a Dansk single out sport muffler & no Cats. What kind of gains could I see by adding a chip with this set-up? If Steve doesn't make a chip for this application, does anyone have any good suggestions on who does make a good chip for this engine?
Scott aka Mouse

[jpachard]

Originally posted by dickster
thats a good point todd.

i missed that first time round reading the numbers off the graph. so overal theres around 12hp gain (the same as i got on a stock motor swapping cat/muff). i would have to change my previous statement and suggest that most of that came from the cat. swap - probably about 8hp, which is the number i got here:

at last dyno figures for 1986 3.2 with dansk premuffler/sport 2 out muffler

please note that the gain was throughout the rev range. swapping the muff for a sports one saw another 4hp but only at the top end.

take it for what its worth

The graphs shown are really easy to understand. All I did was swap the chip. 4 runs with the stock chip. 4 runs with the Steve W. chip. I just selected the two best, one from each chip. How's that . This is the test everyone has been asking for. Is it on a stock motor, no. Is it a back to back test with no hardware changes save the chip, yes. If anyone wants to come to the dyno with me and witness the results they are more than welcome(You pay the dyno fees).

Cheers, James

[jakermc]

Originally posted by Lorenfb
"The fact that Steve's chip improves or does not improve the performance from an otherwise 100% stock car would be irrelevant to nearly all of the installations."

- Jakermc -

Not true, many have just stock engines if by desire or state emissions requirements.
This has been stated by many on this forum too. So stock base improvement data are
of value. Most chip suppliers market their chips to stock applications.

Loren -

The potential customers you are referring to are not SteveW's target market. SteveW is not most chip makers, as you put it. He makes customized chips for custom applications. Quoting SteveW from earlier in this thread:

"Believe it or not, out of every 100 chip orders, 90 of them are for cars with premufflers or some type of modified exhaust."

Thus what I said is absolutely true.

[Wavey]

In the interest of keeping a good arguement going, please vote on the Steve VS Loren poll!

[juan ruiz]

Well after all this depates it comes down to Team S vs Team L.

Few things come to mind......... Why Team L dont Just Purchase this "Custom" chip and carry on their own test ?

Why Team S dont contract an "Out side Source" and conduct the tests ?

Maybe someone "Neutral" can offer to carry this test as is always the same out come.

Having gone thru 6 Different chips my self with over 90 dyno pulls I can tell you that, NONE of this Chips produced the claimed HP, NONE OF THEM! I did not try one of the chips from Team S.

I assume if the customer is happy thats all it matters, does the chip actually produce the "Claims" some of us know the true, do you ?

Peace

[dickster]

james,

i agree - once you know that the hp on the graph isn't peak.

juan,

agreed, i offered to test it

and you're so right - an unhappy customer of steve's around here is as rare as hen's teeth

[svandamme]

puh ... all this chip talk...
mfi talk is more fun...

Chips? we don't need no stinking chip!?!?!?

[Paul Franssen]

Stijn, they only stink when they're fried...!

[svandamme]

lol

[rdane]

Originally posted by jpachard
The graphs shown are really easy to understand. All I did was swap the chip. 4 runs with the stock chip. 4 runs with the Steve W. chip. I just selected the two best, one from each chip. How's that . This is the test everyone has been asking for. Is it on a stock motor, no. Is it a back to back test with no hardware changes save the chip, yes.
Cheers, James

James,
My apologies for asking but I assume your comment above is directed at the original red and blue dyno that Steve posted at the beginning of this thread. I was under the impression that SW thought you dropped the cat and changed to a cat pipe between runs.

Would you please repost the dyno graph you mentioned above and your comments that nothing was changed besides the chip between runs and a reference of time between runs?

thanks,
Dane

[dean]

Originally posted by 88-diamondblue
Loren has now taken to copying and rambling about it. It's now beer thirty time and Loren is the only reluctant one to accept results of any kind.
This reminds me of a trip to Mardi Gras. I got to see all sort of baseline tests on how shirts come off. They are all different with the same result. I can try to explain to you what it was like but unless you were there you can't truely understand the atmoshere and feeling of the experience. There is more to a product than numbers and stats. Its about the experince and whether it feels better driving the car. Thats what this is about, the feel of it. I could show you pictures from Mardi Gras which look like great fun but without being there to experience Mardi Gras you miss what it's all about. Anyone who has attended will know this, others just get to see pictures and imagine. We can see the dyno #'s, aurgue about them, say they were done wrong but until you experience the feel of driving the car with these changes you can not know the overall change to the car. Now it is time for a cold one

Please send me the pics. I have been there once. But I need more data.

Dean

[KFC911]

I haven't read much of this thread (this topic has been beaten to death), but I will chime in. First of all, let me say that I am a very happy customer of Steve's. IMO, his chip and customer service are absolutely top notch and without question worth the $. About six months ago, a bunch of us NC guys rented out a half-day on a Mustang Dynamometer (which is reported to produce different numbers than the Dynojets). My sole purpose was to do a chip comparison between the stock chip and the SW chip I'm using (sport muffler, euro premuffler, and 93 octane), plus, I was just curious as to how my car would dyno. I did 6 runs, alternating between the chips, and everyone there that day agreed that there was no significant difference in the hp & torque curves between the six runs. I didn't believe the actual numbers the Mustang produced (so I deleted the graphs from that thread to avoid spreading mis-information), but for my car, the dyno runs were very consistent (between the chips), and my 3.2 compared very favorably with a new 3.6, a twin plugged hot rod 3.5 MFI, and a couple of early hot rods. Just passing along the dyno info I obtained...take it FWIW. Have a great weekend everyone!

ps: I still have those dyno graphs that I'd be glad to email anyone interested, but I don't want to publicly post graphs with bogus numbers that might be mis-interpreted.

[Lorenfb]

"My sole purpose was to do a chip comparison between the stock chip and the SW chip I'm using (sport muffler, euro premuffler, and 93 octane), plus, I was just curious as to how my car would dyno. I did 6 runs, alternating between the chips, and everyone there that day agreed that there was no significant difference in the hp & torque curves between the six runs." - Keith -

Thanks Keith for the great post. Hopefully this will end this thread and further discussion.

Bottomline: If you're happy with your mod, which really counts, then no more need be said.

[rdane]

Originally posted by KC911
I did 6 runs, alternating between the chips, and everyone there that day agreed that there was no significant difference in the hp & torque curves between the six runs.

Thanks Keith.
Amazing how the chip producer hasn't made the same comparison and it then took 10 pages on this thread for someone (totally unbiased from my perspective) to have actually posted a chip to chip comparison.

[jpachard]

I will post my dyno graphs on Monday showing the improvement I got(they are on my computer at work). As I said before, I also have improved laptimes but I guess this doesn't count since going faster around a track isn't that important to folks yet it really is the only way to prove or disprove a mod. works. Improved driveability in a motor is also important along with things like suspension etc.

Cheers, James

[sammyg2]

Yep, a chip to chip comparison, except he says the numbers are bogus and doesn't believe them.
Now that's science

[rdane]

Chrimney...

I guess this doesn't count since going faster around a track isn't that important to folks yet it really is the only way to prove or disprove a mod.

You are kidding right?
Best way to improve lap times is additional seat time. If you are telling me 10 to 15 hp or #s of torque (on a 230hp base Carrera) are making a big difference in lap times I call BS. Best take that race car out with some of the 2.0L folk.

The Mustang dyno Keith mentioned is known for it's differences (showing lower numbers I believe) from a Dyno Jet, not that is can't measure differences between runs.

[jpachard]

Originally posted by rdane
Chrimney...



You are kidding right?
Best way to improve lap times is additional seat time. If you are telling me 10 to 15 hp or #s of torque (on a 230hp base Carrera) are making a big difference in lap times I call BS. Best take that race car out with some of the 2.0L folk.

The Mustang dyno Keith mentioned is known for it's differences (showing lower numbers I believe) from a Dyno Jet, not that is can't measure differences between runs.

Really?? I guess you don't race....Please tell me of your experince at a track where you wouldn't want an extra 10-15hp or the ability to shift at higher point. What tracks do you run at? I put in about 25 days a year at the track. I can't think of anyone in pit lane, given the choice, who would turn down more Hp. Mark Donohue once said "If I can't spin the tires all the way down a staightaway, the car needs more Hp."

Cheers, James

[rdane]

Portland and Seattle.
If you are telling me that 10 has made a difference I will still call BS, unless of course you are Mark Donahue or Jr. and they don't drive 250 hp cars last I heard.

In the group I track with between all the 3.0 SCs and the odd Carrera the lap times aren't definded by the differences in engines or HP they are definded by drivers. Tires and suspension and brakes make a difference....HP and torque...not 10 or either on the tracks here sorry.

Funny enough the worst 3.0 to dyno was also the fastest track car. Imagine that, the guy knows how to drive? Track or smack?