EFI, BeepBeep and others

lendaddy · 11-20-2003, 06:02 AM

BeepBeep,

I have heard you speak well of SDS injection systems and was wondering if you could help me make my EFI decision. I am torn between what I see as a real value in the SDS systems and the utter coolness and laptop tuneability of DTI and Haltech systems. Ofcourse the SDS is much cheaper but is only programmable via its own interface. I am not after 500-600HP. I am after maybe 400 and most importantly a car that starts, idles, and runs well. I am also interested in how much it cleans up the engine bay. Bottom line is what direction would you guys steer me? Again, this is for my 3.0L 930. Would you reccomend the fuel side only or the version with distributorless ignition as well? Basically if you had my car, intentions, and dilema what route would you take? Thanks guys.

1fastredsc · 11-20-2003, 06:12 AM

Personally (i'm not quite as "certified" to answer this question like beep) i would just use an electromotive since they are easy to tune and your not looking for ultimate track fire breathing power. Plus with the release of the tec 3 there are plenty of people trying to get rid of there tec 2's.

lendaddy · 11-20-2003, 06:16 AM

The issue I have with Electromotive is that they are not that much cheaper than Haltech or DTI so if I go that route, why not get the product with more support? Meaning I bet I could get maps from other people quicker and easier if I chose Haltech as it is so widely used. Plus, a few people I trust have questioned earlier EM products longevity/bugginess. Maybe the new stuff is better? Thanks for the reply though.

beepbeep · 07:45 AM

It's not question of horsepower...300 or 600HP, EFI doesn't care...it just keeps injectors open longer.

SDS has some drawbacks:
1. It's somewhat tedious to program as you must use it's own little "device". On the other hand, you don't need laptop.
2. It's batched system, so it fires all injectors at once. This is not so important actually but it might raise emissions at low RPM's somewhat.
3. No Antilag bang bang (not important if you are not into street-racing)
4. No data-logging or self-tune
5. No Wideband-lambda support.
6. Fuel values are kinda granular, only 8 bit precision...

Good stuff:
1. Honest to god, no nonsense system with all stuff you really need.
2. Good price
3. Simple and reliable, not much that can go wrong once you make it run.
4. Pride of putting it all together and knowledge acummulated.
5. Same performance as expensive systems.

It's like having to set up a webserver...you can either buy Windows 2000 Dell box for 2500$ with pre-installed everything (Autronic), or buy a No-name box for 1200$ and install Windows 2000 yourself and save some money (Haltech), or buy No-Name AMD box , install install Linux, Apache and feel like "real hacker" running bulletproof server for 600 bucks (SDS). Get my point?

Other systems will give you more stuff to twinkle with...mostly stuff you don't need. They will also give you oportunity to edit values in your laptop and if you are planning to dyno this at the shop there will probably be someone who'll be able to do it for you.

With SDS you'll have to learn how it works: MAP says that pressure, Hall says that RPM, then give this much fuel.

But once you are done, SDS will perform as good as Haltech or Autronic.

I'm a ultimate car geek so i would choose SDS in financially challenged situation. That way, i could always nod at guys who just shelled out money to shop that tuned their Motec and say "i did it myself, you just payed for it".

SDS comunity is usually nicer and people are more inclined to sharing their maps, while people who run other systems usually keep them for themselves as ther is more money involved.

That being said, it's probably easier to fiddle with new ECU desings that allow certain degree of "autotuning"...they have conservative default maps that can be dynamically changed by driving with wideband -sensor attached.

I guess it all boils down to how much money you have, what features you need and if you understand basic principles of EFI. You'll need to fabricate new intake and fuel rails anyway. You can always do that first and decide which brain to wire-in later...

P.S.
I would definately order one with distributor-less ignition included. I mean, it's such a small step...everything is already there, just add a coilpack and you are ready. No need for dizzy or vacuum hoses anymore.

1fastredsc · 11-20-2003, 08:03 AM

What's SDS?

beepbeep · 11-20-2003, 08:03 AM

http://www.sdsefi.com/

1fastredsc · 11-20-2003, 08:18 AM

Interesting, but it probably won't work with twin plug since it's designed to only work with 4,6, and 8 cylinder engines.

beepbeep · 11-20-2003, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1fastredsc
Interesting, but it probably won't work with twin plug since it's designed to only work with 4,6, and 8 cylinder engines.

No?

http://www.sdsefi.com/features/mar00911.htm

If you think little about it, you'll understand that it's just a matter of doubling up waste-spark coils. With other words, you split coils so half of it hits one cylinder and half other one. You just connect two wastespark coils in parallel.

You will still have wastespark motor, with other words, it will ignite both when it has to and during exhaust phase, but it will hit two sparks at the time.

Amac · Amac's Garage

Like beep said, horsepower is not a factor.
If your looking for the most cost effective
system, SDS is a good choice.
You may be able to find a used haltec from
some of the track guys that have upgraded.
It sounds like laptop programing is what you
really want.
Be carefull any of these systems can get
into some real money.
I may have a haltec I can sell, but I need to
find it.

lendaddy · 11-20-2003, 08:56 AM

Great info Goran! Are you saying that the most plug and play system is the Autronic? Aren't they the MSD people? Thanks again. Oh yea, my thing about HP requirments was to avoid the sequential vs batch arguement that comes up when people talk about ultimate HP. I am really leaning to SDS now.

lendaddy · 11-20-2003, 09:12 AM

Amac,

I will not lie, you scare me! Your cars are INSANE! I appreciate your input. I will admit I would love to be able to tinker from time to time with the laptop, but it's not the big priority. My BIGGEST priority is that once I am done I want to be able to count on it. I want it to not be the cause of issues like CIS always is. Once I am done I want to be able to drive it every day without worry. Like my CIS which one time at a funeral it decided to rev to 3,500 rpm for one minute after it started, the mourning family was impressed, that was neat! It will be used for 90% street 10% track. What I like about EFI is that when my baby acts up I can look at the data and determine what might be wrong, and rule out things that I know to be right. IE.. "Anyone know why my car surges at idle?" reply "gee man it could be the XXXX or the XXXX or once I saw a XXXX, I would just turn the mixture screw till it goes away. Then again, it could be a vacuum leak. Try checking the 674 different vacuum lines and connections, starting fluid is good for that" UGGHHH

JohnC · 11-20-2003, 10:16 AM

Lenny

I purchased the SDS system several months ago for my future twin turbo project.... I paid $1700 for basically everything...custom length wiring harness....brain...all necessary sensors...two coil packs (dual plug)...narrow band A/R meter....blah blah blah..

There was a group buy going on at a VW forum and we recieved a healthy discount(there's some real cheap bastards in the VW crowd

).

The folks who make the kit also pre map the control so you'll be able to at least start the car and start tuning.

As for the wideband A/R meters, there's always the DIY wideband kit. I purchased the PC board for about $18.

I have'nt installed the EFI yet so I can't say how driveable the car will be but I think it'll be just fine..

I'm up to my neck in other auto related projects at the moment and if you decide to purchase the unit I'm sure you'll have the EFI installed sooner than me.

I assume you'll be running a Carrera intake?

beepbeep · 10:28 AM

I would recomend Carrera intake and rails for such project...also, there are some real cheap injectors at http://www.wmsracing.com/ , i just bought 83lb ones for peanuts.

Talking about auto-tune, yeah...it will work but to get it really perfect you'll need a dyno anyway...otherwise you can purchase wideband kit with SDS and map it yourself on the road, a.k.a. "manual-tune"

lendaddy · 11-20-2003, 10:35 AM

Yep, will go carrera intake or possibly 993 intake. I know it hasn;t been done often, but it may make for a cool project. I won't be on the road for a while so it will be a horserace. I havve to do a topend this winter as I broke a headstud a while back, the day before my DE at Grattan! Oh well, this should be fun. Oh yea, I wont be going twin plug as my application doesn't need it. I may pop the CR to 7.5 but that would be about it.

beepbeep · 11-20-2003, 11:01 AM

Well if you are already taking off the heads, why not machine twin-plugs in them at some cheap shop? It's just a matter of adding extra coils in case you go for direct-fire...there is no expensive dual dizzy to worry about.

And yeah...intercooler would do wonders...

lendaddy · 11-20-2003, 11:04 AM

IC is in the works. You really think twin plug is the way huh? Maybe I will do some more research.

turbo6bar · 11-20-2003, 11:11 AM

Can you fire both plugs at the same time, or does one plug need to lead the second? EFI Twin plug turbo engine = yumyum.

beepbeep · 11:26 AM

Both plugs are fired simultaniously (but from different coils in wastefire-arrangment).

Lendaddy: yeah, it shouldn't be too expensive to have additional holes machined and you don't need to use lower plugs until you have setup ready...just leave them dangling.

Twin plug = less distance for flame front to travel = more aggresive timing = more power

Very nice thing to have...

Properly sorted out EFI 930 with twin plugs is a serious performance machine to consider...add newer turbo and we are talking 400+ HP

lendaddy · 11-20-2003, 11:24 AM

I have a K27-7200 turbo now and will be adding SC cams. The goal will be a very fun street car that is reliable and competative for the occasional track day. 400HP will be plenty for me!

RarlyL8 · RarlyL8's Garage

Do you still have your CIS? How 'bout that home made air cleaner?

I'm one of the oddballs that has come to like CIS. Any spare parts are appreciated.