Vaue of a tracked early S?

[Zeke]

In response to the thread about tire rubbing on an early S track car, someone said, as others before, to not cut on the car so as to preserve it's value. I had some thoughts on that.

While I am subscribing to that theory about keeping the numbers matching and not cutting on the body, you think an S will be all that valuable when it is discoverd that it was a track car with the roll bar or cage, heavy suspension and other mods? I would tend to hold a nice T up to a high value that is not molested or tracked and has no rust. An E in the same condition would surpass a tracked S in value, IMHO.

Why, I ask, are we saving the S's and not all early cars? If this is really the case, then the S's should not be raced at all. I say do what you have to do and worry about whether you preseerved a couple thousand in value after the fact.

Let me give you a teaser of a hypothetical circumstance to support my contention. Three cars for sale, one is my S which is a definite project. The only interior that remains stock is the dash and the door panels/pockets. Nos. matching drive train. Rust repair including some new and some used body panels and respray/color change to an acceptable standard. Lots of bolt in suspension and safety mods. Missing are the sport seats, deep sixes and steel bumpers in favor of race seats, wider wheels and fiberglass.

The other car, a perfect E. The third, a very nice T done to an RS clone complete with a 2.7/ 7R case and MFI.

Don't add in a perfect S, because if there was one, I would agree to not molest the car or track it. But, that's not what we find commonly for sale.

Which would you pay the most for?

I could be missing the point as I often do, but what I'm saying is that unless one has a near perfect S or is restoring an S to near perfect condition that will not be driven, there is not that much to be lost in modifying one if it is going to the track on a regular basis.

I believe once a car has a lot of track time (not the kind of history that involves racing in the 70's), it will lose value for such use. Are we really going to bring these cars back to show/street condition someday or continue to use them for sport and entertainment until they just die from hard use and come back as even a more dedicated racer?

[304065]

Milt, I have a different view on this.

I was flipping through the recent Panorama and noted how many prospective sellers put "never tracked," "never tracked or abused" in their ads, as though that's something to be proud of. I had the following thoughts:

1) A car that's been regularly taken to Driver's education has been required to comply with pre-event safety inspections. As such, it's entirely possible that such car is in better mechanical shape than one that sat in somebody's garage;

2) A car that's been raced is usually subject to both pre-and post-race mechanical inspections, often teardowns, and is MUCH more likely to have been given the once-over by someone who knows what he's doing. Brake pads, fluid, oil get changed regularly, bolts get torqued, suspension settings get checked and the motor gets regularly tuned, if you are trying to avoid DNS/DNF;

3) Thrashing one's car on the street with improptu drag races and standing-start 4000-rpm clutch drops is WAY harder on drivetrain and associated components than a rolling start on the racetrack.

4) The likelihood of damage to the car on the track is, in my opinion, less than that of a regularly street-driven car, due to the presence, in the case of the track, of shared expectations about driver behavior, and the absence of cellphone-chattering, hairbrush-wielding, cheeseburger-and-fries- consuming dolts behind the wheel of mega- UV's who haven't done a mirror check since WJC was in office.

5) The experience of driving on the track often inclines one to be more conservative on the street; and

6) It's a PORSCHE dammmit. It was DESIGNED to be driven on the track.

At the end of the day, you buy the owner, not the car. An owner with a "street only" car who's otherwise irresponsible and doesn't maintain the car is as much a prospective seller to avoid as the guy with a completely thrashed track car with bent suspension pick-up points and unibody damage due to multiple "offs."

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I agree with John and I'll also answer your question wtih my opinion on the value of the 3 cars, if I were to buy them.

Highest value: Perfect E.

then the RS clone, but only if correct RS quarters were properly welded on and as you say, it was nicely done

then the pieced together S

just how I would see them.

[pwd72s]

Milt, I'd think it all depends on what kind of toy the buyer was looking for. Yeah, I have the car some would call an "unmolested S"...tho she has fooled around a little bit. Now it's almost an obligation to keep her maintained & nice. Should my lottery numbers ever come in? I'd go for a street 911 hotrod, not necessarily a track only car, but "close to the edge"..still street, but with track goodies. But that's just MY desire. Your theoretical T done to RS clone specs? That describes Tom Wilkinson's car to (excuse the pun) a T! Only his is sans flares or ducktail or stripes. I drool every time I see it. If I had the bucks,I'd pay damned good money for one similar. But Tom's may be the exception...because on his car, with his attention to detail, it has been done the right way...no cut corners, everything absolutely top quality, labor and parts.
Here's a pic...



Here's his engine...



Yowzer! I'll admit it...this car turns my crank...big time!

[Tspringer]

My '69 911S is at this point seriously modified. It has full track suspension using only the best components( Elephant and SRP). It has absolutely no rust. The entire bottom side of the car, front compartment, engine back and interior compartment were stripped to bare metal, primed in a self etching zinc primer and then painted. Every tiny bit of even slightly rusted metal was replaced.

The car has fiberglass bumpers, front hood and a ducktail. The interior has a zero undercoating or sound deadening and a RS felt carpet kit. It has RS door panels and Corbeau GT8 racing seats plus 5 point harnesses. All the dash pads are correct and it has a momo wheel. The sunroof is still intact and works. (but perhaps not for long.....)

Its running a 2.6 MFI engine built by Supertec with SSI's and a stainless dansk dual out sport muffler. It is loud and fast, a fantastic track and autocross car. I did all the work and anyone who saw the photos here as it went along knows it was done to perfection (and that it was a SERIOUS *****!!!).

So... I have a totally modified but real 911S. AND.... I have the original 2.0 S engine on a stand (with MFI), all the original S body parts, interior parts, suspension parts, wheels... EVERYTHING original for this car. It would be a fair amount of work to take it back to a concours condition S, but all the parts are there for anyone wishing to do so.

That of coarse begs another question: Is hanging onto all those parts really worth it? I have no intentions of ever selling this car, its a "keeper" to me. But, nobody can tell the future. If at some point bad things happen and I am forced to sell, does keeping all these original parts hanging around (my attic looks like a 911S parts depot) actually add value to the car? Would someone pay more for the car if it included all the original S stuff?

I am leaning more and more toward taking the car vintage racing. That means out goes the heating and ventilation stuff, the sunroof, the rear glass.... in goes a full cage, fuel cell and battery cutoff. If I do go that route then it would seem very unlikely the car would ever be a street car again. Also... since a good early 911S vintage race car goes for about the same as a good street car, Im sure I would care and thus I would probably sell all the attic decorations.

Who knows?!?!?!

[ZCAT3]

Milt - I have a numbers matching 69 S that was clearly DE car before I bought it. That actually appealed to me as this was factored into the price, the engine and transmission were fresh, and I figured I would not feel an obligation to keep it a time capsule. I already am thinking about putting a 3.2 in and have done a bunch of little things to make it more street firendly. But I have no illusions that this car will ever be a highly sought after S, despite the fact that it is probably nicer than many of the $25K - 30K original S's you see for sale.

From your list above, I think the RS clone may get the most money if it was really done right. Just ball park numbers, but I would say the S may be a 15 -20K car, the E may be in that same range, and the RS clone could be a lot more.

[ubiquity0]

There are 'RS clones' & then there are RS clones. Apparently a T RS clone just sold for something close to $70,000!

[Oldporsche]

I have been around a lot of these old type cars.

I think the beauty/price is in the eye of the beholder.

Some sales types are looking for the never driven garage queen, others like all of the mods.

I have a '70 E non sunroof Coupethat is unmolested except for the "converted hydropneumatic front suspension.

I also have a '75 Targa, that has been lowered, with rear flairs, its a factory hardtop car. It has carbs, MSD, SSI's, 16" fuchs, RS pistons, etc.

What are they worth? Are they the same price?

And so it goes.

David Duffield

[Jack Olsen]

I think the way to understand the marketplace for the early cars is not to look at the cars, but at the buyers.

At one end you have the guys who are just able to put together the 6-10K (or whatever) to get themselves into an early car. They won't modify it much because they're doing well just to keep it up and running. These guys drive their car for fun on the streets, and sometimes to work. They have a blast for a modest investment.

At the other extreme you've got the big-dollar collectors who get an air-conditioned garage for their handful of S and RS models. These guys drive the cars on well-organized vintage runs.

In between are the guys who can maybe afford to do some modifications, and get to take the car to a track occasionally, or even get into club racing. Oddly, it's the poor guys and the rich guys who don't spend very much on their cars. The poor guys are happy just to have such a cool car. The rich guys generally sell the cars for big money, just like they paid for them. The cars are investments for them that they also get to polish and show.

We in-betweeners are the ones who get soaked, financially. We pay for the cash-foolish mods, and eventually sell our creations for pennies on the dollar. We also sometimes break the cars at the track (at least, I've heard this can happen), and end up upgrading them in the course of making the repairs.

An early S will likely end up in a rich guy's collection, if it's all period correct and Concours-de-Elegance proper. But it can also end up in a real enthusiast's hands, and end up getting used in the way it was designed for. Sometimes (Chuck Miller's S comes to mind), it's both carefully preserved and mercilessly driven.

But usually it's one or the other: you either go the stone-chips route, or the no-stone-chips route.

Personally, it's my belief that if I can't blow past a Viper in Turn 8 at Willow Springs, then I'm just not using the car correctly. Polishing and waxing is boring, to me, and being able to perfectly re-create vintage Porsche sales brochure photos with my lovingly detailed car is just not nearly as fun as drifting through a high-speed turn in pursuit of somebody else in their car who feels exactly the same way.

To each his own. For my work, I write about guys doing exciting (and often illegal) things that I would rather write about than do. Real-life bank robbers might write me off as some kind of dilettante, I guess. I don't want to do the thing I write about; I guess this would make me kind of a 'crime collector.'

But when it comes to the car, I don't want to 'capture the essence' of a bygone era. I want to do exactly what they did in that era -- race the piss out of my Porsche.

The early S is a car that goes both ways. The ones commanding the $40,000-$50,000 prices are the absolutely correct and lovingly preserved ones. The ones commanding $15,000-$30,000 are the ones that see redline on a more frequent basis. Somewhere there's a tipping point between the two.

I think the owners of the cheaper ones get the better experience, ultimately. Although I'm sure there are many collectors out there who are perfectly happy doing things their own way, and wouldn't trade places with a racer in a million years.

Different strokes (and bores, and compression ratios) for different folks.

[Zeke]

John, that was a great counter point. The only thing I could possibly quibble with is the stress on the body. But, at the age of the car, that might be a moot point. It might be a point of contention with a 993, but that is not what I wanted to talk about.

I'll go along with what you say. I will also go along with Shaun. My car, as it is presented in the example, is the least valuable. But, to really nail the escence of the example, how much more or less would my car be worth with nicely done steel RS flares? I say, not that much less, if any.

BTW, this is not about my car. This is about the statement we always hear, "Don't mess with the S." (The average S, not Paul's) Why?

[nostatic]

what color is each car? Give some data that matters, man!

I'd pass on all of them and buy a pristine SC. Then wreck it. Then track it.

oh wait...I already did that.

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by JackOlsen


At the other extreme you've got the big-dollar collectors who get an air-conditioned garage for their handful of S and RS models. These guys drive the cars on well-organized vintage runs.



But when it comes to the car, I don't want to 'capture the essence' of a bygone era. I want to do exactly what they did in that era -- race the piss out of my Porsche.



Different strokes (and bores, and compression ratios) for different folks. [/B]

Jack, your last sentence says it best. But FWIW, Cindy and I just spent this frigid (45 degrees) Orygun day in my unheated non air conditioned two car garage, washing, waxing, (closed the doors & plugged in an electric heater so the wax would dry enough to buff) and otherwise detailing my "S". You see, my income won't allow me $100 plus track day entry fees....or a car to participate in such activities.
So, count me among the poor guys...just happy to own such a car, the one I have, purchased over 30 years ago. Paul

[Jack Olsen]

I've seen your car, Paul. I'd count you first and foremost as a very lucky (or very smart -- your choice) guy.

You polish it because it's a keeper for life, not because you got your broker on the line and put a small fleet of them together.

But even for the guys who collect handfuls of very pristine, very rare cars, I don't want to sound like I disagree with what they're doing. It's just not what floats my particular boat.

(That, and I'm way too poor to be a collector.)

[304065]

Well, thanks Milt. WRT your thoughts on flares, consider this:

How many times have you seen an early car without flares command a premium prices, vs. how many times you've seen a flared car get the premium price? By "premium" I mean the top of the value range for that particular year and model. The data are, despite Bruce Anderson's best efforts otherwise, pretty much anecdotal.

Put another way, my 911E is actually built on a T tub with a lot of S parts. I can't flare the fenders, as this would bump me to a higher class. So I tend to overlook flared or "RS Clones."

A concours guy can't flare the fenders either. So you're left with the street or DE enthusiast as your market, which is a smaller market than the whole market. A smaller market tends to diminish the price, the certainty of achieving that price and the speed with which that price can be had. If you want to be firm on value you have to be prepared to walk away and wait.

And this is the point, what it says in all the Porsche buyers books: that modifications of any nature diminish the appeal of the car to the widest possible audience, which in turn means that the "right" buyer is harder to locate. In Southern Cal, you have a concentration of similar-minded enthusiasts, however, and a sense of "car culture" (RGruppe, etc.) that tends to modify in a certain way (period race mods, for example.) So that tends to take some of the edge out of it.

No getting around the point, however, that people are prepared to pay for quality. Who among us wouldn't bid on Jack Olsen's car if it became available? Or that orange car upthread. . . I blush, I burn, I shudder when I think of my own car alongside that one.

[dsfnctn]

I have a Porsche Parade Concour trophy taking up space in my house colecting dust just like my car was before I found DE and PCA Club Racing . Now I only have things on the car that have a purpose. I am building a GT3 car and it makes me happy . Long gone are those days wondering what someone thinks of my car and its small flaws. I also noticed that the track cars and race cars are not subject to "market value reports" .

[Thomas Wilkinson]

Hello guys,

Thanks Paul for the nice compliment!
Thought I'd seen that car before.

I've wanted to comment on the "value" debate before and decided to jump in on this one.
I'd agree with Jack on the value vs. buyer.
The guy who wants a perfect, all original show car will limit his search to those cars meeting that criteria. A guy who wants a track car would benefit (financially) by selecting a well sorted out example vs. trying to build it from scratch. Same goes for a hot rod street car.
If I were to sell either of my cars I would not target those obsessed with 100% original cars. Nor would I market them to someone looking to race.
They are properly built, well documented hot rod street cars. The guy that knows what it would take to replicate them, and wants what I've got, would be the prime buyer to offer top dollar. I personally love well maintained early cars that have been driven. I've driven Pauls' 72S and it is the closest I'll ever come to going back to 1972 and enjoying a brand new 911S. I've seen some cars that have been driven well and still kept in nice condition. The mothballed obsession with low odometer readings serving as the mark of desirability is rather sad to me. Those cars will likely move about in the circles of owner/investers who value that over anything. Some also love the cars, others I dare say would clear out their garage in a heartbeat if the "investment" market dropped off.

I took on the projects I have out of a desire to enjoy the cars, improve aspects of their performance, maintain a period correct balance and feel, and respect the potential value of the car balanced with all of the above. Both have seen some rain, a few DE events for the 911, pampering care, and redline use.
For someone looking for the type of cars I've got, I believe they would bring a good price. But I've been able to enjoy them too.
Ultimately I did it my way and have no regrets.

Not sure if that answered the original post or not.

Tom Wilkinson
R Gruppe #130
1970 914-6 2.5LS
1973 911 2.7RS spec. motor

[rdane]

Originally posted by Thomas Wilkinson
properly built, well documented hot rod street cars. The guy that knows what it would take to replicate them, and wants what I've got, would be the prime buyer to offer top dollar.

Small market getting bigger every day. Better cars and more educated buyers. Both drive up prices. 10 years from now guys will be lamenting the good old days while paying $75 or 80,000 for the 3.6 RS clones that sold in 2005 for $25,000. but cost the original builder $60,000.

[pwd72s]

Good comment rdane. Trust me on this one...if I had the $ and the place to keep them? I'd make Tom an offer on both of his cars he couldn't refuse. His other car, his "daily driver", is a 14-6 running a 2.5 longstroke with E cams that just pulls & pulls! Both cars demonstrate the serious thought that went into them, both are unflared, both are drop dead gorgeous with tasteful mods, both are Porsche street rods with the highest caliber of mechanical and cosmetics applied. They have "it". And "it" shows...if one looks closely enough.

[rdane]

I agree Paul. There are many mid '70s cars being rebuilt to much higher performance standards than the originals. If I had the space and the cash I would be sucking up any early 3.2 and 3.6 transplant at reasonable prices. $20 to 30 grand will get you some amazing 911 street rods today.

The prices for the early untouched cars are vey high right now for what you get. The more educated the buyers become the higher the prices will go for high quality street rods. It is just a matter of time. Look at how many really nice modified cars are being driven by Pelicans and the kind of money we are spending on them.

I know what I would ask for my car, simply because I know what it will take to replace it.

Build at a level Porsche would have built to or better and you'll not loose money IMO. Build to a lesser standard and you'll simply have a modified car that needs to be refurbished.

In the collector's world...it is all about condition, condition, condition.

cheers,
Dane

[TonyG]

>>>Personally, it's my belief that if I can't blow past a Viper in Turn 8 at Willow Springs, then I'm just not using the car correctly. <<<

If you're blowing by a Viper in Turn 8 at Willow Springs, you're either blowing by a total rookie, or your car is so far from stock, it's no longer got anything that makes an 911S a 911S.

I've been running that track for a LONG time. And I can't remember the last time I've seen an early 911 (or even a 996TT/993TT) that was "blowing past" a stock Viper with only a set of Hoosiers on it.

I'd love to see it.

Tell me when you're out there next. I'm pretty much out there at least 2 weekends per month (sometimes 3).

TonyG