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Registered
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 729
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Andial 3.2 to 3.7L conversion
I called Andial today. They said the conversion runs $20K. The new engine would be 265 hps(correction-flywheel). It's a 6 weeks job. The 930 turbo 3.3 to 3.4L would be $16K. I know it's not cheap. My friend did a 993 TT conversion. It cost $50K. Is the conversion going to be exceptional or should I just get a 930 or 993 instead?
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Caliber 1987 911 Cabriolet Last edited by caliber60; 01-04-2005 at 03:22 PM.. |
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Jamestown,NC USA
Posts: 1,291
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Get a second opinion. There are lots of good shops out there, many of whom post on this board. I personally dont like Andial because of previous dealings.
The guys at Jerrys Woods have always taken the time to talk to me on the phone, and Henry at Supertech posts in the engine rebuild forum frequently and comes highly recomended. Paul
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My ignition is retarded. |
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Friends of Warren
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 3,133
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Caliber
just to stay NA you can put a stock 3.6 Porsche engine in your 87 and have the same results. Prices: 10.5k for an engine 3k for exhaust 1.5k for swap kit 1k for G50 clutch kit upgrade 0.5k for DME chip 4k labor Or check the thread by Ralph Carrera 3.5l. There is a fantastic write up about the results of his 3.2 to 3.5 upgrade.... He's putting out comparable numbers and he's much below 20k. Also on Andial website the 260 hp quoted for the 3.7l is at the flywheel, not at the rear wheels. It goes without saying that it is on the condservative side... But still you want to compare apples to apples. I had a good conversation with Andial when I was looking to do the same. They were very nice and answered all my silly questions. I decided to go the 3.6 route. The 930 is a totally different thing. You get better brakes, bigger wheels, different suspension set up. Tough call.... The 993 is more refined, more confortable, more an everyday car, less visceral and less raw than your 87. From a financial point of view I think the 930 is a better value, followed by the 993 and last the 911. From a fun factor I think you can't beat a lightweight 911 3.6.... Good luck with your decison and keep us posted. |
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,563
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You could always do a turbo conversion like me, Juan and Mike has done on the 3.2L
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Merv '89 911 Turbo Cab Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition ![]() |
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Administrator
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 13,333
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20K for a 260 hp motor, and they don't even provide the motor?
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Jack Olsen 1972 911 My new video about my garage. • A video from German TV about my 911 |
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$20K was the number. Take a look at Ralph's build on a 3.2. Easy to beat the $15K number and still have an exceptional engine. 3.6 transplants come to mind as well.
Ralph (3.5) and I (3.4) both beat the 260hp number easily. But I also suspect Andial is being very conservative quoting 265 crank hp. Lots of better ways to spend $20+ including buying a new car. |
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Administrator
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 13,333
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1. Sell Carrera.
2. Buy 964. 3. Add No Bad Days chip. 4. For extra credit, cut some weight from the 964. Net cost, 2-3K? You get 260 hp, a coil-over suspension, better brakes, working AC, etc., etc. (Hey, why didn't I think of that. ![]()
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Jack Olsen 1972 911 My new video about my garage. • A video from German TV about my 911 |
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
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The 3.7L conversion was recently brought up in a separate thread by a known skeptic (nothing wrong with that I guess) that mused that the Andial 3.7L made 260-265 crank horsepower and thus my 3.5L (as just one example) could no way make the 246 rwhp we saw on the dyno.
I speculated that the 3.7L numbers that Andial quotes are artificially low and theorized that it was because of the exhaust system and chip. Turns out, I was right... ![]() I spoke with the guys at Andial and asked how come their 3.7L dyno number seems seriously deficient. The response was that the "mule" motor was simply built as a 3.7L and put on the dyno just to see what it would do out of the box. The stock exhaust (i.e. heat exchangers AND cat) were retained as was the chip. Pete and Dieter know all about my build and said that if they were to do everything that I did with my 3.5L they would certainly expect 300+ crank horsepower with this configuration. They also said to reach this figure the chip would have to be specially optimized for the extra air, fuel and timing on the dyno. Interesting comment, based on what has been written on other threads by other people. ![]() I think that you should think long and hard about a 3.7L conversion though. While the kit retains the 3.2L crank, the 102mm bore is HUGE and the case has to be opened up ANOTHER 2mm past what is necessary for 100mm pistons/cylinders to a total of 107mm. This MAY lead to some long-term reliability issues and will definitely require additional oil cooling. I think the 102mm p's and c's plus the necessary Carillo rods is close to $8K just for that!!! Just to present ANOTHER option, you can also go 3.6L from 3.0/3.2 using the same 100mm pistons and cylinders I used for my 3.5L (although some piston machine work is necessary) along with stock 3.2L rods and the 964 crank. Again, the parts cost is very high and gets you in the price range of a 3.6L conversion from a 964 or 993. For that kind of money, by the time you are all said and done (including the labor I presume) you will be close to $20K, as what Andial quoted you. IMO, you would be much better off with a 3.6L Varioram from a 993 as a starting point. Many benefits over a 3.0 or 3.2 based motor. The reason why a few of us go with 3.4L or 3.5L conversions is that we can make somewhat comparable power for much less money then MOST 3.6L conversions. My motor cost nowhere close to $20K (as Rdane also pointed out with his) and I have plenty of power for my street driving needs. The motors also look pretty close to stock as well. The only reason that I would ever consider a 3.7L from a 3.2L is if I really wanted to be unique (you won't find many 3.7's I'm sure) or if I wanted to retain my case, crank, injection, etc for originality purposes. I wouldn't expect a motor of this size to last 100K though as I would a 3.4L or 3.5L. Food for thought. Ralph |
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Long Beach CA, the sewer by the sea.
Posts: 37,750
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Quote:
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Most of us could be driving nice CUP cars for what we have in our hot rods
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 2,350
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Start with a REAL 3.6 (964/993), if you believe Porsche knew what they're doing when
they "left" the basic 3.2 for more potential performance. A 3.2 to a 3.5 or greater is a 10-15 year old history re-visited! If you want to gamble, go to Vegas. At least there you'll get a free drink if you lose.
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Have Fun Loren Systems Consulting Automotive Electronics '88 911 3.2 '04 GSXR1000 '01 Ducati 996 '03 BMW BCR - Gone Last edited by Lorenfb; 01-04-2005 at 07:33 PM.. |
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
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Quote:
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 3,336
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Quote:
you could convert mine to bb3 ![]()
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Friends of Warren
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 3,133
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To go back to the topic....
Any conversion does not make financial sense. Wether you do a 3.7, a 3.5, a 3.6 transplant, it will be difficult for you to recover the money invested. The demand for a "hot rod" 911 is tiny. I though long and hard about sourcing a 964 RS or even a 993 RS from Europe. If you start putting numbers down on paper you are in this territory no matter what engine you decide to get (brakes, suspensions, extra oil cooling). The RSs will retain their value if weel cared for. The 964 RS is thought to be the best driving Porsche after the 73 RS. But Porsche never made a G50 RS... So if you decide to go ahead you could end up with a unique car that would leave a 964 RS for dead (yes they do have coilovers but a sprig is a spring and you can get some sweet set-up with a t-bar car). |
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"Pete and Dieter know all about my build and said that if they were to do everything that I did with my 3.5L they would certainly expect 300+ crank horsepower with this configuration. They also said to reach this figure the chip would have to be specially optimized for the extra air, fuel and timing on the dyno."
Dream on! It's called CYA ( cover your .... ) or a New Years hang-over. And they're too busy to update their promotional info on their web site. RIGHT. The things people "buy into", more B.S. or things taken out of context and which ignore the technical reality. Again, another implication that Porsche really can't maximize an engine design, e.g. the 3.2 & its' chip, NOT! News Flash: Porsche introduces a special limited edition 911 The 911 3.5LE Performance Chip Special - "The car Porsche should have built in '89." Also, Porsche considering discontinuing the new 997 in favor of increased production of the 3.5LE. The Porsche engineers at Weissach have to laughing daily at the "wild" HP claims being made on the various threads, "We always thought the Americans were a "little" brain dead.".
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Have Fun Loren Systems Consulting Automotive Electronics '88 911 3.2 '04 GSXR1000 '01 Ducati 996 '03 BMW BCR - Gone Last edited by Lorenfb; 01-05-2005 at 07:43 AM.. |
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Still Doin Time
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nokesville, Va.
Posts: 8,225
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If it were my car and I had that kind-o-budget the 3.6 conversion warmed over is a much better and more reliable deal than a 3.2 pushed to edge in displacement.
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'15 Dodge - 'Dango R/T Hauls groceries and Kinda Hauls *ss '07 Jeep SRT-8 - Hauls groceries and Hauls *ss Sold '85 Guards Red Targa - Almost finished after 17 years '95 Road King w/117ci - No time to ride, see above '77 Sportster Pro-Street Drag Bike w/93ci - Sold |
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Friends of Warren
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 3,133
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Why is it so umbelievable for Andial to think they can get 300+ HP at the crack with a 3.7 displacement with sport exhaust and engine managemet tailored?
We are talking physics here... the 3.7 with twin plug and higher compression pistons and a more efficient brain is not far from a 95 3.6. The stock 95 3.6 put out 272 at the crank... slap in some nice exhaust and you are close to 285... Why didn't Porsche do it? Cause the 3.6 was probably cheaper, lower compression ratio, better fuel economy, better emissions. I don't think Ralph is saying that his 3.5 is better than the stock 3.6 that comes in a 964 or 993. It's just an alternative (like Dane's 3.4) that is avaliable to anyone that has a 3.2 to start with. Ralph actually states that he was in some particular circumstances that made it favorable for him on a cost basis without sacrificing much on the torque/HP front. Now if you don't believe the dyno that's a different story... |
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MBruns for President
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It's funny - we piss an paw over 300 hp here and most other boards don't even get their blood warm until you start talking over 500hp.
It becomes an emotional issue with our cars - we love em - they become part of the family. Hell - how many people took christmas pictures and included their family? Now as far as Porsche leaving anything on the table - look at their evolution of their engines and tell me technology has not improved through the years...
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Current Whip: - 2003 996 Twin Turbo - 39K miles - Lapis Blue/Grey Past: 1974 IROC (3.6) , 1987 Cabriolet (3.4) , 1990 C2 Targa, 1989 S2 |
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What is being ignored is Porsche did built some 3.5s. CIS 3.5s at that. Reason they didn't market them is the performance was better than the early turbos.
So much for the "news flash". There was more than one engineer at Porsche GM who thought a 3.5 should have been the next Porsche delivered. The marketing department thought otherwise. |
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