Andial 3.2 to 3.7L conversion

[caliber60]

I called Andial today. They said the conversion runs $20K. The new engine would be 265 hps(correction-flywheel). It's a 6 weeks job. The 930 turbo 3.3 to 3.4L would be $16K. I know it's not cheap. My friend did a 993 TT conversion. It cost $50K. Is the conversion going to be exceptional or should I just get a 930 or 993 instead?

[Paul Thomas]

Get a second opinion. There are lots of good shops out there, many of whom post on this board. I personally dont like Andial because of previous dealings.

The guys at Jerrys Woods have always taken the time to talk to me on the phone, and Henry at Supertech posts in the engine rebuild forum frequently and comes highly recomended.

Paul

[911teo]

Caliber

just to stay NA you can put a stock 3.6 Porsche engine in your 87 and have the same results.
Prices:
10.5k for an engine
3k for exhaust
1.5k for swap kit
1k for G50 clutch kit upgrade
0.5k for DME chip
4k labor

Or check the thread by Ralph Carrera 3.5l. There is a fantastic write up about the results of his 3.2 to 3.5 upgrade.... He's putting out comparable numbers and he's much below 20k.

Also on Andial website the 260 hp quoted for the 3.7l is at the flywheel, not at the rear wheels. It goes without saying that it is on the condservative side... But still you want to compare apples to apples.
I had a good conversation with Andial when I was looking to do the same. They were very nice and answered all my silly questions.
I decided to go the 3.6 route.

The 930 is a totally different thing. You get better brakes, bigger wheels, different suspension set up. Tough call....

The 993 is more refined, more confortable, more an everyday car, less visceral and less raw than your 87.

From a financial point of view I think the 930 is a better value, followed by the 993 and last the 911. From a fun factor I think you can't beat a lightweight 911 3.6....

Good luck with your decison and keep us posted.

[WydRyd]

You could always do a turbo conversion like me, Juan and Mike has done on the 3.2L

[Jack Olsen]

20K for a 260 hp motor, and they don't even provide the motor?

[rdane]

$20K was the number. Take a look at Ralph's build on a 3.2. Easy to beat the $15K number and still have an exceptional engine. 3.6 transplants come to mind as well.

Ralph (3.5) and I (3.4) both beat the 260hp number easily. But I also suspect Andial is being very conservative quoting 265 crank hp.

Lots of better ways to spend $20+ including buying a new car.

[Jack Olsen]

1. Sell Carrera.
2. Buy 964.
3. Add No Bad Days chip.
4. For extra credit, cut some weight from the 964.

Net cost, 2-3K?

You get 260 hp, a coil-over suspension, better brakes, working AC, etc., etc.

(Hey, why didn't I think of that. )

[Carrera3.5L]

The 3.7L conversion was recently brought up in a separate thread by a known skeptic (nothing wrong with that I guess) that mused that the Andial 3.7L made 260-265 crank horsepower and thus my 3.5L (as just one example) could no way make the 246 rwhp we saw on the dyno.

I speculated that the 3.7L numbers that Andial quotes are artificially low and theorized that it was because of the exhaust system and chip. Turns out, I was right...

I spoke with the guys at Andial and asked how come their 3.7L dyno number seems seriously deficient. The response was that the "mule" motor was simply built as a 3.7L and put on the dyno just to see what it would do out of the box. The stock exhaust (i.e. heat exchangers AND cat) were retained as was the chip. Pete and Dieter know all about my build and said that if they were to do everything that I did with my 3.5L they would certainly expect 300+ crank horsepower with this configuration. They also said to reach this figure the chip would have to be specially optimized for the extra air, fuel and timing on the dyno. Interesting comment, based on what has been written on other threads by other people.

I think that you should think long and hard about a 3.7L conversion though. While the kit retains the 3.2L crank, the 102mm bore is HUGE and the case has to be opened up ANOTHER 2mm past what is necessary for 100mm pistons/cylinders to a total of 107mm. This MAY lead to some long-term reliability issues and will definitely require additional oil cooling. I think the 102mm p's and c's plus the necessary Carillo rods is close to $8K just for that!!!

Just to present ANOTHER option, you can also go 3.6L from 3.0/3.2 using the same 100mm pistons and cylinders I used for my 3.5L (although some piston machine work is necessary) along with stock 3.2L rods and the 964 crank. Again, the parts cost is very high and gets you in the price range of a 3.6L conversion from a 964 or 993.

For that kind of money, by the time you are all said and done (including the labor I presume) you will be close to $20K, as what Andial quoted you. IMO, you would be much better off with a 3.6L Varioram from a 993 as a starting point. Many benefits over a 3.0 or 3.2 based motor. The reason why a few of us go with 3.4L or 3.5L conversions is that we can make somewhat comparable power for much less money then MOST 3.6L conversions. My motor cost nowhere close to $20K (as Rdane also pointed out with his) and I have plenty of power for my street driving needs. The motors also look pretty close to stock as well.

The only reason that I would ever consider a 3.7L from a 3.2L is if I really wanted to be unique (you won't find many 3.7's I'm sure) or if I wanted to retain my case, crank, injection, etc for originality purposes. I wouldn't expect a motor of this size to last 100K though as I would a 3.4L or 3.5L.

Food for thought.

Ralph

[Zeke]

Originally posted by JackOlsen
1. Sell Carrera.
2. Buy 964.
3. Add No Bad Days chip.
4. For extra credit, cut some weight from the 964.

Net cost, 2-3K?

You get 260 hp, a coil-over suspension, better brakes, working AC, etc., etc.

(Hey, why didn't I think of that. )

Jack, I don't see you in a 964. I like you the way you are. (With the car, man, with the car )

[rdane]

Most of us could be driving nice CUP cars for what we have in our hot rods

[Lorenfb]

Start with a REAL 3.6 (964/993), if you believe Porsche knew what they're doing when
they "left" the basic 3.2 for more potential performance. A 3.2 to a 3.5 or greater is
a 10-15 year old history re-visited!

If you want to gamble, go to Vegas. At least there you'll get a free drink if you lose.

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by Lorenfb
If you want to gamble, go to Vegas. At least there you'll get a free drink if you lose.

Loren, I think that is the funniest thing I have ever read from you. You actually do have a sense of humor sometimes.

Ralph

[bigrubberjeep]

Originally posted by JackOlsen
1. Sell Carrera.
2. Buy 964.
3. Add No Bad Days chip.
4. For extra credit, cut some weight from the 964.

Net cost, 2-3K?

You get 260 hp, a coil-over suspension, better brakes, working AC, etc., etc.

(Hey, why didn't I think of that. )

Your kidding right? Any day you want to start over, just let me know, I'll trade ya.

you could convert mine to bb3

[Steve W]

Originally posted by Carrera3.5L
I spoke with the guys at Andial and asked how come their 3.7L dyno number seems seriously deficient. The response was that the "mule" motor was simply built as a 3.7L and put on the dyno just to see what it would do out of the box. The stock exhaust (i.e. heat exchangers AND cat) were retained as was the chip. Pete and Dieter know all about my build and said that if they were to do everything that I did with my 3.5L they would certainly expect 300+ crank horsepower with this configuration. They also said to reach this figure the chip would have to be specially optimized for the extra air, fuel and timing on the dyno.

Well, if that ain't the word of God ....

[911teo]

To go back to the topic....
Any conversion does not make financial sense. Wether you do a 3.7, a 3.5, a 3.6 transplant, it will be difficult for you to recover the money invested. The demand for a "hot rod" 911 is tiny.
I though long and hard about sourcing a 964 RS or even a 993 RS from Europe. If you start putting numbers down on paper you are in this territory no matter what engine you decide to get (brakes, suspensions, extra oil cooling).
The RSs will retain their value if weel cared for. The 964 RS is thought to be the best driving Porsche after the 73 RS. But Porsche never made a G50 RS...
So if you decide to go ahead you could end up with a unique car that would leave a 964 RS for dead (yes they do have coilovers but a sprig is a spring and you can get some sweet set-up with a t-bar car).

[Lorenfb]

"Pete and Dieter know all about my build and said that if they were to do everything that I did with my 3.5L they would certainly expect 300+ crank horsepower with this configuration. They also said to reach this figure the chip would have to be specially optimized for the extra air, fuel and timing on the dyno."

Dream on! It's called CYA ( cover your .... ) or a New Years hang-over.

And they're too busy to update their promotional info on their web site. RIGHT.

The things people "buy into", more B.S. or things taken out of context and which ignore
the technical reality. Again, another implication that Porsche really can't maximize an
engine design, e.g. the 3.2 & its' chip, NOT!

News Flash: Porsche introduces a special limited edition 911

The 911 3.5LE Performance Chip Special - "The car Porsche should have built in '89."

Also, Porsche considering discontinuing the new 997 in favor of increased production of the 3.5LE.

The Porsche engineers at Weissach have to laughing daily at the "wild" HP claims being made
on the various threads, "We always thought the Americans were a "little" brain dead.".

[asphaltgambler]

If it were my car and I had that kind-o-budget the 3.6 conversion warmed over is a much better and more reliable deal than a 3.2 pushed to edge in displacement.

[911teo]

Why is it so umbelievable for Andial to think they can get 300+ HP at the crack with a 3.7 displacement with sport exhaust and engine managemet tailored?
We are talking physics here... the 3.7 with twin plug and higher compression pistons and a more efficient brain is not far from a 95 3.6. The stock 95 3.6 put out 272 at the crank... slap in some nice exhaust and you are close to 285...

Why didn't Porsche do it? Cause the 3.6 was probably cheaper, lower compression ratio, better fuel economy, better emissions.

I don't think Ralph is saying that his 3.5 is better than the stock 3.6 that comes in a 964 or 993. It's just an alternative (like Dane's 3.4) that is avaliable to anyone that has a 3.2 to start with.
Ralph actually states that he was in some particular circumstances that made it favorable for him on a cost basis without sacrificing much on the torque/HP front.

Now if you don't believe the dyno that's a different story...

[JeremyD]

It's funny - we piss an paw over 300 hp here and most other boards don't even get their blood warm until you start talking over 500hp.

It becomes an emotional issue with our cars - we love em - they become part of the family. Hell - how many people took christmas pictures and included their family?

Now as far as Porsche leaving anything on the table - look at their evolution of their engines and tell me technology has not improved through the years...

[rdane]

What is being ignored is Porsche did built some 3.5s. CIS 3.5s at that. Reason they didn't market them is the performance was better than the early turbos.

So much for the "news flash".

There was more than one engineer at Porsche GM who thought a 3.5 should have been the next Porsche delivered. The marketing department thought otherwise.