sway bars for a SWB

JCF · 01-08-2005, 01:11 PM

Any advice on the best setup for sway bars on astock 67 911 , it has a front sway bar of 15mm front but none in back.
I know the S had 15's in the back.
Been told I need one and that I shouldn't get one. Did a search and came up with the same answer.
I will be doing some DE's and light tracking but not any racing .

Thanks.

John

Grady Clay · 01-08-2005, 03:59 PM

John,

To begin with the ’67 911 was way too softly sprung as delivered. Find some stock torsion bars from later 911s. Something like 20/26 mm would work well.

You need to be sure the shocks are in like-new condition. You don’t need racing or even sport shocks – gust good.

Make sure you have recent ball joints, tie rod ends and wheel bearing service. Remember you have a 38 year old 911 and your (and the 911’s) life depends on these components.

The sway bars are a “tuning” device and necessary in their own right. I would start with 17/12 mm F/R. For your use I wouldn’t go stiffer than 19/15 with all Factory parts or equivalent.

While you are dealing with torsion bars, suspension, and other – pay close attention to rust damage. You don’t want to stress rusted parts to failure and far more expensive repair. The rear torsion bar tube comes to mind.

The best investment in “go fast” is DE and some commercial driver’s schools. What you will learn is what the 911 won’t do. Too many assume that a 911 has infinite grip and will “turn on a dime.” Not so, there is a real art to driving a 911 fast and you can learn it.

Best,
Grady

JCF · 01-08-2005, 04:18 PM

Grady;

Thanks.
New rear Konis will be going in shortly (fronts are already new)
Looked over the rust , ball joints , bushings etc. when I bought it last spring. All looks good.
Torsion bars were also something I fig. would need an upgrade.
The car drove real nice with the 7 in rear phone dials that were on it, but when I switched to 6's it felt loose in every way.
Also must get it lowered.
I realize the SWB's are "special " and def. want to learn the limits of both the car and myself with instuction in the relative safety of a skid pad and on a track.
Thanks again;
John

bob tilton · bob tilton's Garage

very difficult to find susp info on SWB cars which is why i printed the ad sheet from MarkP and his emory built 68 race car. it reads as follows:

front/rear
torsion 20/25
sway 19/19
turbo tie
alum crossmember
teflon all around
bilstein all around
6 x 15 fuchs w yoko avs es100 205/60
2.0 S engine
1998# weight

grady - what is the "final answer" to SWB and turbo tie rods? i have heard that you are not suppose to install on a SWB.

JCF - hope the info helps.

SteveF_911 · SteveF_911's Garage

I run a 18mm on the rear of my SWB I have been racing it for the last 6 years or so and I found when I put on the rear sway bar I got only marginally better lap time.

Example 1:20 to a 1:19.5 on the same track only a couple of weeks apart.

Best thing to do with your suspension is try on thing at a time and and get some track time to get comfortable with the setup.

The SWB cars are fun, they move around a lot through the corners and can bite if you go a bit quick. Best thing to do is get heaps of track time an learn the limits of the car.

Oh and the odd bit of help from a good trainer helps as well.....

JCF · 01-09-2005, 02:55 AM

grady - what is the "final answer" to SWB and turbo tie rods? i have heard that you are not suppose to install on a SWB.

Bob;

I was wondering that also, I'd heard that , thats why it wasn't on my list.

John

Grady Clay · 01-09-2005, 07:02 AM

Well, you got me.

I don’t know why turbo tie rods wouldn’t be acceptable. I have original rod ends on mine BUT I have a sorta ’73 RS front suspension – RSR Bilsteins, S brakes, 22 mm torsion bars, 19 mm sway bar, rubber bushings, and the later steering rack. It may be that the Turbo tie rods won’t screw into the early (’65-’68) steering rack? I’ll bet there are very few serious track SWB cars that still have the early front suspension.

I have been advising a SF Pelican with a Blood Orange ’67 who is collecting the parts for the front suspension conversion. It is a real improvement for the early cars.

Best,
Grady

bob tilton · bob tilton's Garage

?c1Ú2?shed my entire susp all at once a few years ago. this is what i did for a "spirited driven" street car:

turbo tie rods
poly all around except trailing arm and front sway
new ball joints
adj spring plates
torsion 18.8/24
sway stock - car has both front and rear from factory
bilsteins all around
1" rear wheel spacers
yoko avs intermediates 205/60/15 on deep 6s
lowered, aligned, cornerbalanced

other things i did include drilling the torsion tube to "breath" per the recommendation of my wrench. the rear torsion bars had lots of surface rust and there was a bit of moisture. i have heard that swimming pool lube is good for poly bushings - may get flamed for this.

seems like once a year i have to saturate the a-arm poly bushings with silcon spray due to sqeeking. if i had to do it over again i would look into elephant racing bushings.

currently the car has no axles as i will be replacing them.

in re: to the turbo tie rods i have heard that the threads are no long enough. they worked for me but i think there are a lot of SWB guys not installing them due to inconsisstant advertising. some ads "69+", other ads "all model years".

JCF · 01-09-2005, 09:03 AM

Today I read that the stock torsion bars for the 67 were 23mm .
Shouldn't that be enough for my present purposes ? or do you think they might have softened over 35 years ?
Also, on the Early S Reg. Tech info. I found an interesting article on front bushings for 65-67's.

John

bob tilton · bob tilton's Garage

a good place to visit for SWB info is the 912bbs.org.
i thought stock torsion bars were 18.8/22. then 18.8/24 in 78.
i'll see if i can dig up some info as i am sure i bookmarked a few posts on the subject. hopefully more people will chime in like disfctn and ttweed.

JCF · 10:56 AM

Bob;

"Like the other 68 Porsches the 911T had a softer rear suspension with new torsion bars of 22 INSTEAD OF 23 mm diameter of the ( 65-67 +68L ).

Ludvigsen pg. 448

"...a return was made ( in 69) to the 23 mm bar diameter that had been used until 22 mm bars were adopted for the 68 models ."

Ditto, pg. 610

John

Grady Clay · 01-09-2005, 11:16 AM

I can confirm what John posted. In ’68 Porsche actually reduced the diameter of the rear torsion bars from 23 mm to 22 mm. Within the first month of owning my ’68 I had retrofitted the earlier torsion bars (SwayAway didn’t yet exist.) As it turned out, my 911 was delivered with 15F/13R sway bars and S brakes because I had ordered the optional Koni shocks.

Many (most?) 911s have installed larger diameter torsion bars. There is a reasonable supply of used bars as everyone has gravitated toward larger and larger bars due to the weight of the cars and the desirability of stiffer springing.

With stiffer springs (larger torsion bars) the suspension travel is reduced. Larger sway bars are necessary for the same effect as with the softer springs.

Best,
Grady

bob tilton · bob tilton's Garage

here are my bookmarks:

1968 911 Suspension set-up

http://www.vararacing.com/ScottRacing/Scott%20Racing.html

the others are erroring out with "404 error code"