If the timing chain slipped while you were driving, then every valve would have hit a piston, and every valve would be bent. At least, that's what makes sense to me. Correct me if I am wrong, anyone. If you threw a valve, then one valve would be destroyed. The others would be fine. If you pull the heads and find one thrown valve and nothing else, then maybe it was a wierd coincidence.

Anyway, if it were me, I'd get someone to pull the heads off, with me there to watch, to get a first hand look at the damage. Then you'll know what really happened. You need evidence.

OK, I'll correct you. ;)

If the chain slipped, only the valve(s) that were open would get hit. All of the valves do not open together. :cool:

No offense intended, but why would you consider taking it to the original shop? :confused: It's one thing if they are fixing it for free but to pay them to take it apart and do a valve job on a motor they likely damaged doesn't sound like a good idea.

You've made it clear that you don't have the money to get it fixed. You need to decide (quickly probably) whether you are willing to proceed with a possibly lengthy legal proceeding or just write it off, sell it, and move on. Obviously most of us here hope that you keep the car and follow through with having the shop make it right. Of course it is easy to give advice anonymously online and a bit different to actually be the one that has to follow through with legal proceedings.

If you hire a lawyer to sue the shop, you spend more on the lawyer than what the shop will charge you.

Don't ask me how I know, had it with the legal system.

Even with bent valves the engine will still crank, and crank faster since there won't be any compression.

Don't ask me how I know, had it with twincam Ford engines.

Something else is the problem if the engine won't turn over. A drop valve would stop the engine from turning over, but that is not related to a tensioner upgrade. A drop valve is more related to an over-reved engine or a mis-shift.

A drop valve could lead to piston and head damage.

Pull the valve covers off and look at the top of each valve. If you don't see the top of the valve, there your problem, the engine sucked a valve down.

Best ally is probably the local PCA. He won't want to be on their bad side, probably...

Denis,

If the engine didn't sieze immediately and kept rotating, wouldn't all the valves come into play, one after the other? My chain slipped when I tried to start the car, and I heard two loud clunks in quick succession. Sure enough, two bent valves on two different pistons. I figured at normal engine speed, all valves would get it.

It depend on if the chain slipped on both cams or just one cam.

i bet that even the mere mention of your intent to move the car for a second opinion will make him pucker. this is a sad story. your car is fantastic, dont sell. get a beater like nostatic suggested, or buy an all-weather riding suit and move your ducati up the totem pole to "daily driver".

9 miles.....you know the shop may have forgotten to re-fill the car with oil....Or maybe they left something in there that claogged the oil pump. Did the engine seize or just clatter to beat hell? If it seized it was likely oil starvation. Then you have a case.

Don

don - oil pressure was fine, the death of the engine was pretty un-spectacular...

vash - Duke as a daily driver - I'm may be stupid but I'm not that stupid...

silverc4s - Ooops, I let my PCA membership slide...

ruf - I promise not to hire a lawyer to fit a twincam Ford engine into the car...

sundaypunch - without wanting to sound like a sucker, I always like to believe people are basically honest until proven otherwise. I at least wanted to give the guy the opportunity of admitting a mistake and righting a wrong IF he was to blame. Hence why the car was taken back to his shop. Even now I will not cast blame or mention the name of the shop without getting the facts first, there is always the possibility he is telling the truth.

I have spoken to a number of very helpful people today, (consider yourselves included), watch this space for updates. Thanks for your support, I am slowly getting my sense of humor back.

Yes, but it only cost $25 to file a claim in small claim court to get the shop's attention, no lawyer needed.

Nigel,
You are quite welcome, just one thing - DONT SELL THE CAR - at least until you have some time to reflect on the big picture..

BTW, I would bet that some of the local PCA guys would be happy to help you, member or no - may get you to re-up..;-)

I agree with most everyone here, do not sell.

Find an atty friend or relative to write a letter. If you don't get satisfaction, it may be time regroup and start a fund for a 3.2 upgrade (thinking of that "T" engine). That car is beautiful. No way will I ever sell my 72.'

BTW, is that car registered at the VTK website? What ever condition it's in it will help in the hot pursuit of all the 72's.

Some half truths here. A valve generally doesn't just fall into the engine by itself. Why woudl it do that? There is a valve retainer that is attached to the spring. I have never heard of that just failing.

Valves fall into the engine because they break off. They break because they get hit by the piston. The valves hit the piston if the cam timing is off, or if you over rev and the valves start floating. The piston generally chases the exhaust valve and at 9000 rpm the piston usually wins.

It is true that more than one valve should get hurt if you have a whole cam out of timing. However, some valves may just be bent a bit, others may break.

Hope this helps.

Geoge

Why is the engine dead? Does it still crank over but not start?
Is the engine completely seized?

I bent my share of valves in engines, but the engines always crank over even with bent valves.

From your previous posts it sound as though the engine is seized. Couple of thing that will seized an engine, no oil pressure and he bearing are burnt, overheating and the pistons and cylinders are welded together, thrown rod, and drop valves.

A little more info on what wrong with the engine will be helpful.

Don't know why the engine is dead, this remains to be discovered, prior to failure the oil pressure was fine.

I am 99% certain the piston/barrels are not seized, I personally reckon something (at least one valve) is embedded in a piston/head and therefore the engine is locked. Didn't try turning the engine over by key after it failed, didn't want to risk more damage. The shop apparently tried to turn it over by using a wrench and stated it is locked up, I am assuming they wouldn't have tried to turn the engine backwards...

I was only travelling around 10-15mph when it all went horribly wrong, so I'm guessing it would have been far more dramatic had I been going faster.

Ultimately, the professional opinions I have received all state 'that valves do not generally fail for no apparent reason'

Thanks again to all on the board who have tried to help me with this issue, including those who have only been able to provide moral support. I have also spoken to a number of P-Car professionals who have really gone out of their way to give me lengthy free advice and opinions with no strings attached. Frank at Eibell in St.Pete, Jo at Germantech in Clearwater and Dave at Panache Performance in Sarasota to name a few. Respect due.

I will keep the board informed on how things develop, still looking at all options before making any decisions.

It does seem suspicous that the failure occurred shortly after the tensioner update. However, one possible cause I haven't seen anyone mention yet may be contained in your first thread relative to why you had the tensioner update done. I recall seeing This Thread that suggests that you had a partial tensioner failure and the engine was allowed to continue to run for a few minutes. I'm no P-car expert but is it possible that the partial collapse resulted in enough cam mis-timing such that some amount of piston/valve contact occurred? If this were that case, would the possible contact create enough damage such that valve head separation would occur shortly after the engine was run again?

I do agree with the idea of finding something cheap to drive until you can afford to repair the car. It looks way to nice to sell for cheap (unless you sell it to me) ; )

Good Luck,

Dennis

9 miles / 15mins is way too much of a coincidence.
Did the shop roadtest the car?
Did the flatbed driver note the mileages when he picked you up?
Is the mileage on the shop reciept?
If they didnt properly road test it the oil level could have been way off.
The first thing I would do is get down the shop and take detailed photos of the engine. Be smiley and amicable and say the pics are so you can sell it on ebay or wherever.
Then when you get home tell them not to touch another nut until you have had the car examined by an independant assessor.
Maybe even record the phone call.
Then post the photos here and we should be able to get a better idea of what the shop did to it on your return and advise you what to do next.


My guess is either the oil stat opened and there wasn't enough oil to keep the tensioners fed properly, or they left a camshaft nut loose.

There is no need to take off or loosen that nut if all you do is a basic tensioner upgrade.

George

Legally, that is so close to the time of the repair, I wonder if the burden would shift to the shop to prove it wasn't them under some kind of "res ipsa" theory!

The car ran fine for THIRTY THREE YEARS and however many miles.

Then the engine fails on the same DAY, and within 9 miles, after they do work involving the chain tensioning system?

Pure coincidence is almost impossible in that case, IMO.

I'd definately spend some time determining what failed, and put some legal heat on the shop.

original tensioner partial collapse=
valve/piston contact=
crack initiation=
low cycle fatigue failure after tensioner repair?

Similar scenarios happen frequently in the Aerospace industry. there is always a cause and effect relationship...

Any update on this? I really hate to see good people get shafted and hope the shop stands up to the mistake.

Had the car towed to another shop last Thursday, waiting for prognosis. Will update the board as soon as I hear anything.

Just spoke to the shop, here's the current situation - apparently lots of metallic debris in the oil, some of which looks like bearing material. His initial opinion without a complete teardown is either oil starvation/lack of oil or a 'foreign object' somehow may have entered the engine and caused a seizure.

Looks like a top end rebuild may have just turned into a full engine rebuild. Nice.

Engine now being completely stripped apart to allow further investigation. Will keep you posted, a great start to the week.

Good luck!

A shop has you engine opened up to put in tensioners, change the oil, etc. . . . 9 miles later engine seizes up from a foreign object somehow getting into the engine . . . hmmm.

Nigel, you have our sympathy...we're talking lots of $ for a rebuild here, so waiting for other shop's opinion. Sounds like it may be time to start thinking about legal help...

I've been following this thread with interest. Many moons ago my 78sc and a tensioner failure. The engine never jumped time but sounded like a coffee grinder back there. I was 500 miles from home on a holiday weekend. The car was flatbedded to a dealer and monday morning they started the car up it was fine! I drove it home and had the tensioners replaced locally. My point is..the tensioners can fail but as long as the chains don't jump a tooth you should be ok. My first thought was maybe the shop took the car out for some spirited test driving after the work was done..minus oil..or without letting her warm up? Then of course, they fill it up and park it out front and give it back to its owner! Any thoughts on this theory? Nigel, keep us up to date on this.

If you do conclude that the shop is at fault, you should consider trying to get the claim tendered to their insurance company.

When I worked in a shop 20 years ago, one of the guys doing a major service drained the differential, but then forgot to refill it! When he got back from the test drive, there was an odd noise coming from the rear end. Oops.

It was tendered to the insurance co. and they paid to replace the differential, no problem.

The mechanic did end up getting fired, though!

The shop ruined your engine and you are quite foolish if you do not confront them. By the way take lots of photos in the dis-assembly. The judge will like that.
Time to get tough.... nice guys do sometimes finish last. Make them pay for the entire repair bill from the second shop. Don't back down... they put you in this situation.

ken_xman is right, take pics and confront them. I hope you get evidence that clearly shows the shop is at fault and they agree to take care of it but I'd start looking at what legal steps you need to go through if the shop refuses to resolve the issue. Please keep us posted.

Thanks,

Jay

If you do not find the mechanics shop at fault...

Look for a good replacement engine and sell yours in pieces. You will be amazed that you can almost break even on a swap like that. I replaced an old magnesium 2.0L with a 2.7RS spec motor. In the end, the 2.7 cost me $300 after I sold all the parts from the 2.0L! I did all the labor for the swap which saves $... Lets see... $300 for 70 extra hp??? Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Good luck, sorry about your misfortune...

Trust me on this one - if I get conclusive evidence that the shop was at fault or the mechanical failure of the engine was directly attributable to their actions (or lack thereof) I will take every step to ensure I get satisfaction. No more Mr Nice Guy.

As much as I hate to admit it, I have already spoken to my attorney and given him a brief outline of the circumstances. Once I am armed with all the facts I will be in a better position to take action if necessary.

Should know more by Thursday/Friday, will keep you guys posted.

I am currently travelling in a Chevrolet Classic renter, to call it 'driving' would be stretching the truth. Possibly the most bland, un-emotive car ever produced; utterly souless. Even worse than the Ford Focus I had last week.

I miss my car.

any updates?

Didn't hear from the shop on Friday - plan to call them Monday. Will post as soon as I have news...

A good shop should cater to appearances, even if they did do nothing wrong.

The shop that I work for rebuilt a 440 dodge motor for a motorhome that ended up becoming a comeback. As in the case of many first time rebuilds we reused the exhaust valves because they were all in spec.

About 300 miles into its first maiden voyage the head broke off of one of the exhaust valves and completely trashed the motor.

We could have dismissed it as not our fault since it was not our workmanship that caused the failure but for the sake of our reputation and the fact that we warranty our work we ate the entire cost of the rebuild with the exception of the cost of a new set of valves.

I too suspect your shop is trying to pass the buck, but I would not pass judgement until your motor gets an autotopsy from an independent expert.

350HP930

If you read the thread in its entirety you will see I have been very careful not to lay blame on the shop (or even name them). I will ONLY do that IF the cause of the engine failure can be established and proven to be directly related to the work carried out on the car. Fair's fair. That's why the car was towed to another shop for an independent opinion.

Nigel - you have been much more the gentleman than I would have been - kudos for you taking the high road.

I use to work at a GM shop many years ago and 99% of cars we worked on was GM. Some regular customer asked us to do his timing belt on a 16 valve Mitsubishi car. Our mechanic messed up on the timing somehow and we lost alot of money on the job. We rented the customer a car and got it fixed for him as fast as we could. No shop wants to mess up but this is part of business. Its all on how the business handles their mistakes. Needless to say we always had business when many others around us was slow. We really catered to our customers.

Good luck Nigel on your outcome. I agree will most everyone else that the shop may have made some mistake.

A relatively simple failure analysis of the valve will determine if the valve failed because of fatigue (cracked), or, failed because it was smitten by the piston (valve timing). If the later I would bet they (the well respected shop) screwed-up.

Well, the jury is out. Glad I didn't accuse the shop of poor workmanship or lay blame at their feet. Apparently just bad luck and a coincidence the engine failed when it did - a rod seized then threw its bearing guts into my engine, lots of metal flying about wreaking engine havoc. The shop even advise discarding the tensioners as they may have metal in them - total usage: 9 miles. Yes, the engine still had oil in it.

One question remains - why couldn't the engine have failed before I dropped $1009 dollars into it? A case of what we call in England, 'Sods law'.