Value please
 

Had new tensioners fitted at the cost of $1009 last week, then car packs up 9 miles down the road. The shop has looked at the car and checked the tensioners which are apparently fine. Without dismantling the top-end to verify they believe the engine may have thrown a valve, unfortunately it was just bad luck and a coincidence it happened so soon after the tensioner issue.

They reckon 'IF' it is a valve the cost will be around $2500-3000 to put right, more if it is anything else surfaces...

Here's the deal - I have just moved house and believe it or not the car (until now) has been my daily driver, I am not in the best financial position at the moment and am now car-less and have limited options. What I want from you guys is an idea of what the car would sell for AS IS.

I have had the car for 3 and a half years and have several+ thousand dollars worth of receipts on top of what I paid for the car. Just some of what has been done/replaced:

* New rotors all round, rebuilt calipers + new hardware
* SS lines, speed bleeders
* New Turbo tie-rods and ball-joints
* New half shafts
* New interior - seats recovered, RS door panels, carpet kit, floor mats
* Motolito wheel & Adapter, new window cranks
* New sunvisors, gearknob, luggage straps
* New retracting seat belts from PEP
* New carpet kit in trunk, new hood shocks
* Guages rebuilt
* New Blaupunkt head unit, Polk 6.5s in doors, Polk 4s in parcel shelf
* Pertronix fitted, new wire set
* Targa top reconditioned, new top clips
* New shocks throughout
* New engine & trannie mounts
* ALL bushings replaced - trailing arm, sway bars etc
* New neatrix rear spring plate bushings and new spring plate covers
* New Shifter bushings & rebuilt pedal cluster
* New Euro lenses, new horn covers, H4s
* New Euro bumper guards front & rear (chrome, no rubber strip)
* Strut Tower Brace
* Turbo valve covers
* Oil sump plate kit
* Polished 7x15s rears, polished 6x15s front (deep sixes), new black lugs
* New hood emblem / badges throughout
* Odyssey single battery conversion and quick disconnect
* New carrera tensioner kit (only 9 miles on them!)

72T Targa in signal yellow. Car is solid and in very good overall condition, always been reliable until now. Minor rust bubbles at bottom of doors, offside front fender has minor bubbling, floor pan solid. Car has factory AC. Always maintained, swepco, regular oil and valve adjusts etc. Still runs original MFi.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110324722.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110324737.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110324748.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110324758.jpg

Soooo, my first reaction is . If it indeed threw a valve 9 miles after tensioner replacement - AND the shop maintains that their work was unrelated to this failure??? Are you prepared to take them at their word?

They were working on the very same system, and there are a couple of installation errors that can cause the cam timing to slip, this being the end result in most of those cases....

What is your very pretty Targa worth? I would say that it's value AS-IS is about $5K to $10K LESS than it was before this shop work was done, depending on how much risk the new owner is willing to undertake.

How many miles on the engine, and has major or top end overhaul ever been done??

What Bill says. That's a bit too much "coincidence" for my taste. Valves don't just fall into the cylinder.

Your car, if nothing has been opened up again can be examined and it can be verified if piston to valve clearance / cam timing is compromised after the 'repair'.

I would go at it and make the shop responsible 100%. At least get them to repair it for free and you'll pay for the machine work and parts, their price.

George

Beautiful car, sorry to hear what happened. It sounds fishy, you drive the car for over 3 years and then after new tensioners it fails? I would get a second opinion. As for what it's worth... eaarly cars are going up and even with a bad motor that car looks great and has a lot of work done. I'd say you could get around $8000 on ebya.

Good luck with it.

I am in a really crappy position and I truly hate being here.

Surely the car would not have run at all if the tensioners had been ill-fitted? The guy is well respected in the area and has worked exclusively on Porsches for 25+ years. The car was flat-bedded back to his shop on Friday half an hour after I had collected it, he maintains the failure was unrelated to the new tensioners and he apparently removed the chain covers and everything was as it should be. I do not know enough to doubt him (or better yet prove him wrong), what would you do?

I bought the car with very little history from a PCA member. Had it inspected, all was good. No idea as to the miles or rebuilds.

nigel911,
Was this a first installation of pressurized tensioners, or a replacement of the 1972 style originals?
What else was replaced parts-wise? Items like ramps, idler sprockets, etc??
Do you have a materials list from the invoice??

Just listed on the invoice as 'chain tensioner update kit - $600'

First installation of tensioners to replace originals - as far as I know. My lack of technical knowledge is kicking my a$$ on this one. I don't know what to do.

That sounds like the "Carrera" tensioners; they are what is generally involved when an "update" is referred to.

Is the car at your home now, or back at the shop?

There are far more knowledgeable folks that I here on this procedure, but it is definitely beyond minor surgery, and can be the cause of such a failure if camshaft timing slips a tooth while in process.

The timing of your cams can be checked RIGHT NOW, by a competent technician. You should consider having that done independently before finalizing dealings with the last shop.

You might stop payment on the $1009 too, if there's a way to do that, pending some resolution.

I am just telling you what I would do in this case, this is not in any way legal advise, YMMV...;-)

You need to look into this further. I also do not believe that you have the tensioners repaired and then 10 minutes into a drive you have valve failure that is unrelated. That is highly improbable. Of course the shop is going to tell you it is unrelated, they don't want to be forced to repair the motor. There have been several threads here over the past couple of years from people that damaged their engines after installing new tensioners. Sorry, I don't have them bookmarked but I did read the horror stories before (successfully) redoing mine.

I would have it towed to another reputable Porsche shop for an inspection. I would never have the same shop do the work on the top end if you have it rebuilt unless it is for free.

Ultimately these things often come down to the amount of inconvenience you are willing to go through. Most people don't follow through and end up being out the money while the shop gets away with it.

Since no one has really answered your question, I'll take a stab at it and say that you would probably get somewhere between $2500 - $4000 AS IS.

Whew! JR, you must be a loyal follower of Sweet old Bruce!!;...(

Value? $6-7K maybe? Having a toasted motor always hurts the value of a porsche.

I too think what has happened here is related to botch installation of the chain tensioners. Or may be defective chain tensioners? I thought I read something about people running into bad batches of tensioners upgrade kits?

If chain tensioners fail timing goes off big time. Things collide. Big mess.

In my 1978 targa 3.0 I was driving on an autocross and the engine jumped time. I was cruising along through the cones and snap! Oh that sounded expensive. Pulled the motor apart (well I didn't, mechanic did) and found some bent valves and cam timing was all screwed up. Anyway we are not sure what happened as the tensioners were in good shape and did not collapse. Anyway I guess my point is that this sure sounds related to the recent work done.

I think the shop has to prove to you that the two events were not related. You need a second opinion. Perhaps file a suit in small claims court too to show you are serious.

Even if the shop is "well respected" I can't how they can rule out the work they did as the cause without getting into the motor.

There isn't much you can do since the car went back to them. If there was a cam timing problem or a tensioner collapsed, it probably is fixed now.

I would still threaten the shop with legal consequences, if they do not work with you. You can tell them that you will take them to small claims and that you will provide an expert witness that will tell them that it is highly unlikely that the work and the engine failure are not related. You may hope to get at least the labor back for the work that was performed.

George

Nigel - talk to Joe at Germantech in St. Petersburg - www.germantech.com he is probably the best wrench I have run into in a long time - and as straight as the day is long... I too would have a hard time believing one is not related to the other

To answer you actual question: Your car is worth about 10k with a running engine, I'd say. Subtract for the engine repairs accordingly. I would think it will be tough to get more than 6k right now, since the engine will likely need more refreshening than just popping one head off.

George

if i paid a shop over a grand, then into the first 10 minutes, the car dies, they better start saying their prayers. there's no way the car would've gone back to them.
get the car back ASAP and get a strong second opinion and then sue them, get your money back plus damages.

:)
Lets see $2k-$4k for car, $6k for a 3.2l engine, sell core for $1k. Thats $7k-$9k for a pretty sweet early targa with a 3.2.

Yes please! :D

I hear you - or better hire a security guard for my return or I'd be taking out the one k on someone's hide...

What George said. "Highly unlikely", and that is putting it politely. Did the cam timing slip? What did the shop say? How much fiddling around have they done w/ it since it was towed back to them? I would get it the hell out of their shop immediately and stop payment on the $1009.00 until you can clear it up, 10 minutes out of their shop is enough of a "correlation" for any BAR or court that I know of. Especially when the mechanical failure is 100% related to the system on the motor that they were working on. This is ridiculous, they are absolutely taking advantage of your limited mechanical knowledge, this would not fly for 10 seconds w/ most owners!

Even if they have "fixed" the cam timing, all of the evidence is still there. Unless they switched in a different tensioner, but then they are opening up themselves to massive exposure for fraud, perjury, and possibly other criminal charges that could have their shop padlocked immediately, at least here in CA. None of the shops that I recommend on this forum would dream of throwing away their entire business over a mishap like this. It's inconceivable.

As for what a 911T targa w/ a broken/non-running motor is worth, that is a sad subject. If anyone tells you more than ~$3-4k, ask them if they or anyone they know would like to buy it for *their suggested price*. That will shut them up in a hurry. :rolleyes:

I'm agree with the general sentiment here that it was the shop's fault and, now, liability. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I'd first take a strong stance that they pay for all of it, but I liked the suggestion that you pay for machining and parts, and they pay for labor. That is a very fair comprimise.

I'll start the real-money bid war at $4500, as-is. But really, you shouldn't sell it for that.

E

I have a wonderful image in mind of the scene in "Fargo" where the big Native American guy takes off his belt and whups the shiz outta Steve Buscemi. :D

reading this thread is making me mad.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

your have a very beautiful car (from the pics). It's a shame what happened to it and now you want to sell it?

I am obviously an optimist - I expect to be treated as I would treat others. If the wrench was in the wrong I hope he would be honest, hence I had the car taken back to him. Now I wonder if I have done the right thing.

Unexpected lottery win or inheritance aside, I am not currently in a position to be able to run $3000+ to fix the car. Under the circumstances I really don't know what to do, especially as the car has been with the shop for 4 days since the incident. Could the timing be re-adjusted if the engine will not turn?

In all seriousness - what would members of the board do if you were in my position? I value your opinions.

We've pretty much told you, Nigel. If they will not change their tune immediately and start talking straight about what caused the engine damage, I would have it towed out to another shop ASAP. Someone above has suggested one, (don't know how close it is to you), but you need to start exercising your options. This is too big of a boo-boo, particularly in light of your financial situation, to just let slide. :D

You need to ask the shop if a jury of your peers would also think it was a coincidence that your car craps out after 9 miles and $1000 valve/camshaft expense... Sounds to me like they forgot something when they buttoned it back up...

Sorry to hear about your problems, it is a great looking car, hope all turns out that you get to keep your car.

Michael

Noah P has the best idea for getting a second opinion. Maybe grab a PCA tech guy to recommend a shop to look at the car and then go from there. If the first shop is at fault (according to shop 2) then I'd have the 2nd shop do the repair and have the first shop pay for it. Shop 1 is going to demand to do it because he can do it wholesale - it might be worthwhile to pay shop 2 the difference - depending on shop 1's attitude

I would NOT sell this car. It will cost you more to get back into another 911 you want (in the current market) then it will to fix the car. If you can't get it fixed right away - then store it and get a 800-1000 beater until the dispute is resolved or you save enough to get it fixed. You should be able to resell the beater and break even or just lose a little. Lot less than losing the value of your cool looking 911 (in a unique color).

Good luck....

wow.....yes....please, please do what these guys are saying.....that car is absolutely gorgeous! i would CRY if the cost of a rebuild would force you to sell it......get the car out of their hands, get a few reputable opinons right away....and make sure and let the current shop know that you want some answers .....and if you don't get them, or they continue to feed you this bull$h!t then tell them you are calling a lawyer if they refuse responsibility.

Listen to the advise get it to another garage and get it checked out. Things happen people make mistakes so let them pay for the repairs. atleast for the labor.

I will contact Joe at Germantech (thanks Jeremy).

Couple of final questions:

If the tensioner/timing has been 'fixed' (supposing the installation was at fault) could you still be able to ascertain the cause of the engine failure?

Could you reset the timing with the engine 'locked'?

Cheers guys.

I mention Joe because he has serviced both P-cars that I have owned. He's very straight with me - as in - don't waste your money on this upgrade, you can probably get xx,xxx miles out of this before you need to do anything, several things he has fixed or taken a look at concerns that I have had and has not charged me. He's taken the time to show me an engine that he was building that was the same type as my old 1990 c2 targa that had the head blow by. He didn't need to -

He's probably saved me thousands with the advice he has given me.

Nigel,
Sounds like the motor needs to come out and be opened up to really tell what happened. The reality is the shop should pay for the repair, but will be a legal battle to do so. Try your local attorney general, and better business bureau for help.
If you are going to sell the car as is, I would be interested in purchasing it as a project needing a rebuilt motor. I will PM you my phone # if you want to talk about it.
Ken

If the engine is seized, you will not be able to retime the cams. However, it's as easy as claiming that you over-revved the engine (by misshifting) and that the cam timing got messed up after the pistons hit hte valves.

This is a real complicated case. I would try hard to talk some sense into the shop before having the engine pulled and disassembled by another shop. After that all bets are off. See what they say, if they realize that you aren't going away. Also, can you find a flat six expert in the local PCA that can come with you or support you?

Hope this helps.

I agree with others. An engine rebuild shouldn't make you sell the car. If nothing else, store it until you can do it. Get Wayne's book and do it yourself! ;)

George

I have spoken to few local P-shops and they are of the same opinion - it is perhaps too much of a 'coincidence' that the failure occured so close to the installation of the tensioners. However, they were at pains to point out that it is not impossible (though possibility is somewhat small) that a failure occured through no fault of the wrench. I would never cast blame unless I could prove it and as such I am giving the shop the benefit of the doubt at the moment.

Ultimately it needs stripping down to see where the problem lies. If there is then blame to be attributed I would have to try and prove it - tricky when the car would have been removed from the workshop.

The original shop wants around $700 to strip the top end. If it is a single valve then he reckons around $2500-3000, more if there is additional damage. Basically I run the risk of dropping $700 (on top of $1009 for the 'update') to find out I cannot afford to get it fixed. Rock / Hard Place.

Don't shops carry insurance for mishaps like these? A friend of mine took their car to a shop for an oil change, and they left the drain plug loose, losing all of its oil on the way home and seizing the engine. The shop's insurance paid for a new engine.

That car is gorgeous, by the way.

If you can garage the 911 for a while and fix it later ...do it. A beater daily driver can be found for less than $1000.
Its a real looker.
If you are going to part with the old girl, please sell her to someone who care for her the same as you do.. or better.
My first choice is to see you fix it, my second choice is to let me buy it, fix it, and care for it.

Sell 748 instead! You know you want 916/996/998 in future! Too much invested with love, to sell that car.

nigel,
I am afraid I agree with a911. If you MUST sell something sell the Duck, or trade it for a car you can drive till your finances are better.

I love Ducatis as well, but in all honesty, a yellow 748 is eminently replaceable any time in the future that you choose. that 911E targa will be G O N E forever...;-(

Those guys are right, this is fishy and I would fight it, but fighting it is going to be hard if they are playing dumb. Proving anything is going to be harder. And you need a car. And at some point they jsut will stop talking to you...

I'd go in between. Assuming they are still sorry and you have been polite, and that the shop does not totally suck, I would guilt-trip them into fixing the engine for me at cost. They should be OK with that.... Can you take a loan or something for a while?

do not sell the car. period. scrape up $500-$1K and buy an old honda to get around until you sort this out. Selling now would not make financial sense imho (or emotional).