Carrera RS Values...

[RENNMAN]

Drove my 73 RS today after a long Winter hibernation. All I can say is to me there is nothing like driving one of these cars. They are an icon and the price reflects it. I would never want to be without it even with high prices being paid for them. SCM is way behind and the BJ car needed help from what I understand.

Best,

Don

[Doug&Julie]

Originally posted by kycarguy 935
I don't believe all the fake slant nose cars in the late 80's drove up the prices of the real 930S slant nose cars either on a similar situation.

...yet with all the fake Cobras, the real ones are still gaining in price? OK, probably not quite the same, but still...

I think it simply has to do with the RS reaching peak status as a rare collectors car. My point about the fakes is that's an indication of it's status...so many people are copying them, they MUST be valuable.

OK, in MY head that makes sense...

[wolfturbo]

FWIW guys, the Barrett Jackson RS resold shortly thereafter for somewhere around $115-120K. That buyer just resold it again. While he wouldn't confirm the "exact" price out of deference to the buyer, he did tell me that it was between $145-$150K.

If anybody is aware of any nice RS touring cars available for less than $125K, please PM me. I'm a buyer and I will pay a finders fee!


Wolf

[Randy W]

Originally posted by speeder
The cars are starting to have a price:value ratio similar to Beanie Babies in 1992.

What are all the rich people so afraid of these days? They're behaving like something is going to end soon.

In some cases, I think it is their life (or livelihood) they are afraid is going to end and they want the pleasure of owning this icon before it does. The cars are worth that much to those who can afford them for all the reasons people pay more for something than they would otherwise. Luckily, for those not able to afford the real thing, an exact replica of the later production '73RS (or something even more exciting) can be built for half the price.

Don't get me wrong, they are great cars (especially the first 500 or the real lightweights). Heck, I should have bought that concours touring in 1999 for $60K, but I was building something more exciting! You see, I'm afraid of dying without having experienced the thrill of driving and owning an amazing 911 too....

[reed930]

Originally posted by Doug&Julie
...yet with all the fake Cobras, the real ones are still gaining in price?

I think all of the Cobra replicas have definitely affected the value of the originals. While the originals are still worth plenty, I think most collectors will tell you their value would be significantly higher without all of the replicas on the street. One big collector told me once, "Yeah, I'd get a Cobra but then I'd have to spend all my time convincing people that it's not a replica."

I don't think there is any car with more mystique than a Cobra and yet their prices are still far short of Ferraris and Porsches with similar production, reputation.

[Doug&Julie]

Good point.

[silverc4s]

You can't argue with the law of supply & demand, these "investors" are for the most part in it for the money.

Given the relatively small number of these cars that are still in existence, the "bubble" price will certainly stay long after they are the center of attention.

Authentic RS = six figures from now on

Next in line - longhood S's, then E's in as original condition, or restoreable to same.

Other longhood cars will see appreciation "bootstrapped" by this frenzy, most of the value will remain.

[ted]

Originally posted by Randy W
You see, I'm afraid of dying without having experienced the thrill of driving and owning an amazing 911 too....

Nice reflection RW.
RW Speaking of driving... please help lobby an 06 N meets S track day so we can witness the thrill of real RS cars being driven through the rear view mirrors of a mildly upgraded 911.

Richard Price in So Cal has been tracking his RS for years.
I respect a guy that can enjoy the full potential of his toys.
Good driver fun car but by today's standards the RS is several seconds slower a lap than comparable cars that cost 20K.

Sometimes lap times are not important, must be something else?

[Randy W]

I would like to see that '06 track day happen too, but we would need to move the event to a place like Napa, etc. You, John and I could talk with Roger and Cris in Monterey this year if you wish.

The one thing about a 2.7RS with MFI is the balance of the motor/car package and the throttle/driver connection - it's more than just throttle response - a unique experience for sure, but so is a 2.2 S (or a 2.8 RSR).

[69Sman]

Originally posted by RENNMAN
Drove my 73 RS today after a long Winter hibernation. All I can say is to me there is nothing like driving one of these cars.

Best,

Don

So TRUE! So True....NOT EVEN the GT3 compares....

[greglepore]

I don't believe this is a "bubble" similar to the Ferrari bubble a few years back-most of those cars have settled back to where their intrinsic value is, and a 120k RS is much closer in intrinsic value than a 200k Dino. Bill V's comment was spot on-these are limited production, well documented, desireable cars; those that remember/desire them from their youth can now likely afford them, and for the most part the type of guy that wants a real RS isn't interested in a clone. Its the VIN plate that's valuable.

You could argue that they were somewhat underpriced for a long time, and that the market is overcorrecting. Real estate values and a soft stock market may be leading people to put money into cars again.

[ted]

Originally posted by Randy W
I would like to see that '06 track day happen too, but we would need to move the event to a place like Napa, etc. You, John and I could talk with Roger and Cris in Monterey this year if you wish.

Napa sounds great! If we can lap Sears or T-hill on Friday or Saturday, or both.
John and I are going to miss it. Enjoy the show and please represent those that prefer to experience the potential of their 911s.

Originally posted by Randy W
The one thing about a 2.7RS with MFI is the balance of the motor/car package and the throttle/driver connection - it's more than just throttle response - a unique experience for sure, but so is a 2.2 S (or a 2.8 RSR).

Right the 911 throttle steer experience, when mastered the evil rear weight bias can do magical things.
John and I last Saturday, 6 hours on a skid pad.

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by reed930
I think all of the Cobra replicas have definitely affected the value of the originals. While the originals are still worth plenty, I think most collectors will tell you their value would be significantly higher without all of the replicas on the street. One big collector told me once, "Yeah, I'd get a Cobra but then I'd have to spend all my time convincing people that it's not a replica."

I don't think there is any car with more mystique than a Cobra and yet their prices are still far short of Ferraris and Porsches with similar production, reputation.

Agreed...clones tend to diminish a car's desirability to those who want the real thing. 356 Speedster owners suffer the same problem, having to tell people their car isn't a replica. As I said before, the '73 RS used to be my dream car. Today? I'm quite content with my real 911S. No desire left for an RS.

[ted]

Originally posted by RENNMAN
Drove my 73 RS today after a long Winter hibernation. All I can say is to me there is nothing like driving one of these cars.

Originally posted by 69Sman
So TRUE! So True....NOT EVEN the GT3 compares....

Yes impressive on the street but only fully appreciated at the track. Preserve your cars from track rash but do get a ride someday in a track prepped and well driven 911. Once you do you will find the euphoria of the street experience in a 911 doesn’t come close to challenging the potential of these cars, or you. Sorry it's true.

[speeder]

Mike, You are so right. There are some owners who will actually drive the cars as they were intended, but as they get more valuable most of them become like Fabrege eggs. Too special to risk banging up. If I was rich enough to afford one, that sucker would wind up on the track. At least for DEs.

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by thrown_hammer
The fakes are better, faster, cheaper, and you can drive them without worrying about destroying history.

I agree. If anything, the clones work to bring the prices down, not up, as exclusivity disappears, and no one can tell whether it's a "real" one or a "fake" one. The problem with the real ones is that you can't modify them without affecting their value. The RS was good for it's time, but you can indeed make a much better car out of the components and engines that are available today.

Originally posted by kenikh
Hate to say it, even after a bubble the prices never drop back to where they were. We are now officialy past the point where a mortal can own a real RS ever again.

Not true. Ferrari Daytonas once commonly traded hands for well over a million. Now, they are hovering in the $130K range, a HUGE drop in value. If anything, I would say the collector car market is *very* volatile, based upon looking at past experience.

Originally posted by RONWISER
BTW SCM prices are way behind what is happening in the marketplace on RS's. You can't buy a nice one for 85k.

I disagree completely. SCM pulls it's numbers directly from sales at multiple auctions, which really are the best indicators of the market (including the RS that sold at Barrett Jackson for about $95K incl fees/commissions). eBay is worthless for determining values - I would be very suprised if the big-dollar eBay auctions actually complete. I take everything I see on eBay with a grain of salt. Even if they do complete the auction, then nine times out of ten, the purchase was either way overvalued or way undervalued. It all depends upon who is looking at the auction that particular week. eBay valuations are very, very volatile for items that are not very common.

Originally posted by silverc4s
Given the relatively small number of these cars that are still in existence, the "bubble" price will certainly stay long after they are the center of attention.

Authentic RS = six figures from now on

They actually made a large number of these cars - 1590. This, in itself, will eventually serve to keep prices down. In the grand scheme of things, 1500 is a very large number, when you compare it to historical data on the values of other cars.

One point that people may not realize is that the law of supply and demand rules all. I was called as an expert witness a few years ago in a matter relating to 917 engines. There were four that were stolen, and I was asked to come up with a valuation for them. Well, there aren't that many of them, but there isn't a huge demand for them. So, it happens that if you sold them all at once, you would probably get 300-400K for the first one, maybe $100K for the 2nd one, and then $50K or so for the third and fourth. The value of the engine was only what it was worth at that moment in time due to the supply / demand considerations of the market. Add more supply or reduce demand, and the price will go way down.

We're starting to see more poeple sell their RSs - and we'll see it more and more in the future as the cars change hands (they always do). I'll have to bookmark this post, so I can ago back to it in a few years...

-Wayne

[NiceT]

Yes the prices are driven by supply and demand but as prices go up, there are fewer who can fill the demand side.
I passed on my one and only chance at an RS last fall when one was for sale locally by word of mouth. An aquaintance told me briefly about the car and a price of $80,000. By the time I contacted the owner he said he knew the market had "heated up" and now the price was $100,000. I went to see the car any way and it was a real matching numbers touring model with all the right goodies. It had been changed from Viper green to White and the paint and motor were tired. Even at the original price of $80,000 it would mean dipping way to deep into savings for a speculative purchase so I passed. This car was tired and highly priced and I would not have been able to put the money in it it deserved. I know the car did sell for $90,000, then again a few weeks later for $115,000. It is now in the hands of someone who has looked for one for a while and is giving it a proper rebuild and correct repaint and will most likely covet and enjoy it properly.
I wound up with a really exceptional, low mileage, original paint 73.5 T for a fraction of the RS and dollar for dollar was a better decision for me. When I recently took it by the shop of the original seller of the RS he was quite impressed with it's quality. No it's not like an RS but it is a stunning early 911 that I can enjoy and not worry so much about it's future value.

These prices WILL eventually settle down. It has happened before, I know first hand and it's not a lesson I need to repeat.

[PorscheGuy79]

Originally posted by 69Sman
So TRUE! So True....NOT EVEN the GT3 compares....

You mind if I come over and just stand near your garage. Jeez in a perfect world mine wouldnt look much different. I love the GT3 its the glimmer of hope that keeps me thinking there might just be good water cooled Porsches in the future. So far with the 997S the direction seems to be good. 69Sman would you mind posting some pictures of your cars?

[randywebb]

I am wondering what is the source of $$ that is driving these price increases? It sure isn't a techno-stock bubble (we are due for that cycle agains for a few more years...). Maybe it is real estate investments.

But I agree - these prices will go back down -- how far down probably depends on how popular these cars become in China, India, and Indonesia. If the emerging rich folks in these high popn & high economic growth countries decide that an RS is the thing to have....

[Wayne 962]

Originally posted by randywebb
I am wondering what is the source of $$ that is driving these price increases? It sure isn't a techno-stock bubble (we are due for that cycle agains for a few more years...). Maybe it is real estate investments.

That's a good question. I have an opinion on this, it's coming from several sources:

- House refinancings (propping up the economy).
- Money from abroad (our cars look cheap in comparison)
- There's really not a good place to put $$$ these days. Bonds are a bad bet (because rates will probably rise), housing is way over-inflated, the stock market seems to be in a holding pattern. There's a lot of money out there looking for a home.

-Wayne