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Constant Velocity (CV) Joint Replacement

Awww, crap!

Looks like I may have tranny issues again. #@#$$$#@#@#$$!!!!!

I've got almost 5,000 miles since I took it apart last year. It's been running fine...shifting without issue and now....well...not so much!

Went to meet the wife this evening for dinner. She had been shopping at the mall, so I hopped in the P-car and headed out to meet her. 5 miles or so to the freeway, no problems. 10 miles down the I-285 to Perimeter Mall. Cruising along with traffic, still no issues.

Exit the freeway, stop at a red light at the end of the exit ramp. Go through 2 more lights, again, no problems. Stop at another light, waiting to make a right turn into the mall parking lot. Sitting there for a while, so I shift out of gear, into neutral...foot off the clutch. No sense wearing out.

Light turns green, step on clutch, shift into first. Ease foot off of clutch, feel first begin to engage, then...CLUNK...CLUNK...car decides it doesn't want to move on it's own power.

Enging is running fine, never had any problems with that. Try shifting through the gears, I can feel them all...but...I soon discover that I don't need to engage the clutch to shift gears. Engine still running, I can shift between all gears, without stepping on the clutch. The will still not move.

Shut the car off and a guy with a nice looking 350Z happens past and asks if I need a push. We push it into the mall parking lot and out of traffic. Great to see helpful people like that still exist in the world.

Anyway, long story short, car feels as though it is shifting into all gears, even reverse, but just will not move on it's own power. When I step on the clutch, it still feels the same as normal. I feel the spring resistance, feels stiff, like normal.

Could this be the clutch has just disintegrated? Or something worse? Am I going to be opening the case up again??? Sure hope not. Hopefully it's just a clutch/pressure plate kinda thing.

Anyone?

Randy

Oh, haven't had the chance to look into anything yet. Had dinner with my wife, as planned, and came home. Hopefully I'll get a chance to look closer at her tomorrow.
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Last edited by rcecale; 05-20-2005 at 05:36 PM..
Old 05-18-2005, 07:37 PM
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Randy,

Hopefully a CV came loose. Probably easy to fix if nothing else got damaged.

Best,
Grady
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Old 05-18-2005, 07:52 PM
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Grady, that would be sweet, if it turns out to be only a CV. I've read about that here...seems like a few times...lately.

I'll lift her up tomorrow and have a look. If that's what it is, I'm thinking there shouldn't be too much damage. I was able to start movement from one traffic light, and then travel maybe 1/8th of a mile to the light where it refused to move. I was even able to get it moving when I heard the clunking.

Thinking about it, the sound of the clunking sounds like it could have been the CV.

Keep your fingers crossed. MINE ARE!!! Thanks for the QUICK reply!!!! It's awesome to have the angels in my corner!

Randy
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Old 05-18-2005, 08:04 PM
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Re: Uh Oh...

Quote:
Originally posted by rcecale
Awww, crap!

but...I soon discover that I don't need to engage the clutch to shift gears. Engine still running, I can shift between all gears, without stepping on the clutch.
Hmmmm.....are we sure that this is a symptom of a failed CV joint?
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Old 05-18-2005, 08:39 PM
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i had a tranny in 2 gears at once. It was like the car was towing 50tons for about 1/4mi. then in garage and out the tranny comes for some r&r.. party hearty.
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Old 05-18-2005, 10:02 PM
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sure sounds like cv's from the clunks..if it were a clutch cable you would have known that..couldn't have anything to do with the tranny either (hellacious rebuild thread )..i'm with grady on this one (always a safe place to be)
ryan
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Old 05-18-2005, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grady Clay
Randy,

Hopefully a CV came loose. Probably easy to fix if nothing else got damaged.

Best,
Grady
Yup what Grady said, it sounds like you are having the same problem I had a few months ago Randy. It was exactly how you described, it even happend to me when I stopped at a traffic light. Then went to put it into first and nothing. I looked under the car and my left side halfshaft was hanging down . Hopefully it's not the tranny, and your problem is the result of a detached CV. If this is the case, inspect the flange for damage.
Old 05-19-2005, 03:56 AM
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Did a search last night, and again this morning and found the following threads.

Axel fell off

Consequences of CV bolts backing out. Ouch

Between these and what you and Grady have posted, I'm confident this is exactly what happened. I'll be taking a look a little later on this morning. Hopefully there is no damage.

I'll post back what I find. Unfortunately, I fogot my camera this morning, so I won't be able to take/post any pics.

Randy

btw....I was able to find a P/N for the bolts last night, but didn't write it down, figuring I'd get it this morning again from a search. Now I can't seem to find it. Anyone have this info? It's an 86.

Thanks, again, everyone!
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Old 05-19-2005, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rcecale

. Anyone have this info? It's an 86.

'85-'89
900 067 123 01

M10x50

"since the new CV have a sheet metal housing, washers, Porsche pn 911 332 191 00 must be used"
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Old 05-19-2005, 04:59 AM
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GREAT!!!! Thanks for another quick reply!

My setup looks similar to this one...


Porsche says “NOTE: Since the new CV joints have a sheet metal
housing, washers [moon plates] 911.332.191.00 must be used
when installing.” It says nothing about bolt length or Schnorr
lock washers.


I guess I'm stating the obvious here, but the bolt and washer are items 20 and 21, respectively, and item 22 is the "moon plate," correct?

Only reason I'm asking is because of some of the info I saw last night, where people were confirming which year CV joints had which types of parts, i.e., schnorr washers, etc...

Randy
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Old 05-19-2005, 05:32 AM
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I believe new schnorr washers are always a good idea no matter what factory did.
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Old 05-19-2005, 05:36 AM
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Randy,

The steps:

1) Diagnose problem and decide if anything else got damaged. Pay particular attention to the surface and threads on the transmission axle flange. If any concern, pull the flange out so it is easy to work on. You can lap the surface flat with a piece of plate glass and some 600 grit wet-dry paper. Check the internal threads both visually and by feel with a good bolt. Make sure there is a slight champher from the first thread to the flat surface. Determine the diameter of the bolts and CV; 8 mm or 10 mm for the bolts and 100 mm or 108 mm for the CV. Check the CV boots for damage. Inspect the CV surface that mates to the flange.

2) Reinstall the CV with the (good) used bolts and correctly torque; 33 ft-lbs for 8 mm bolts (M8) on 100 mm CVs or 60 ft-lbs for 10 mm bolts (M10) on 108 mm CVs.

3) Collect all the needed new parts; new 12.9 bolts, new Schnorr lock washers, and new or good used moon plates if you don’t have them. Be prepared to replace the CV boot(s) if needed. Use new CV gaskets if yours requires gaskets and have several spares available.

4) Have the calibration of your torque wrench checked. Make sure you have perfect (new) condition Allen socket wrench for the internal hex CV bolts; 6 mm wrench size for M8 bolts and 8 mm wrench size for M10 bolts.

5) Pre assembly; have everything clean and inspected known good or new condition. Glue the new CV gasket to the flange so it will stay in place. You don’t need to glue it to the CV joint. Install the CVs using the old bolts, moon plates and Schnorr washers and torque to spec (33 ft-lbs for M8 bolts 60 ft-lbs for M10 bolts.) Check for the amount of thread extending through the flange, it should be 1-2 threads (1 ½ ideal) when the flange axial play is compressed towards the transmission. Check for bolt clearance to the transmission casting.

6) Final assembly; remove a pair of bolts and a single moon plate. Clean the threads in the bore of the CV and flange using aerosol “Brake Clean” and compressed air. A small “test tube” brush will help. Compare the length of the new bolt to the just removed bolt. Verify it is a 12.9 bolt. Install dry with NEW Schnorr washer and the moon plate. Torque to spec; (33 ft-lbs for M8 bolts 60 ft-lbs for M10 bolts.) Repeat for other bolts – two at a time.

7) When finished, check the torque in sequence so you can’t miss any.

8) Repeat torque check after some driving and again at least annually. Keep a spare set of new bolts, Schnorr washers, moon plates, etc. for the occasion when you want to remove the CVs.


Some thoughts:

There has been much confusion about the torque spec for the two different size CV bolts. Some are from errors in print. There has also been confusion about the size (diameter) of the bolt and the wrench size. I am measuring a M10 12.9 bolt on the unthreaded diameter under the head at 9.86 mm. This M10 bolt uses an 8 mm internal hex wrench size.

Always use new Schnorr washers. Never use used ones and absolutely no substitute washers.

Use only 12.9 bolts with 6-point internal hex wrench socket. Never use a substitute. Inspect for any damage, particularly the internal hex.

Always use the Factory moon plates and not individual flat washers. There are two versions of the moon plates for each bolt size. There are early M8 used on ’66-’68 6-bolt 100 mm CVs. There are late M8 used on ’78-’86 6-bolt 100 mm CVs. There are early 4-bolt M10 used on ’69-’75 108 mm CVs. There are late 6-bolt M10 used on ’86 and later 108 mm CVs.
Obviously M8 has a nominal 8 mm hole and M10 has a nominal 10 mm hole. The difference between early and late is the inside clearance cut-out for the tin cover. I’ll get some examples and post an image. The late moon plate versions may be used on the early CVs but not vice versa.

There are different seals; for ’66-’68 there were none, they just leaked. From ’69 to somewhere they were outside the CV bolt circle diameter. Starting with ’76? They were inside the CV bolt circle diameter. From ’84 on the CV had an end-cap and no seal.

The thickness of the CV (in the axial dimension) was reduced in ’72 so the bolt length changed. Always check for the correct bolt penetration.


As everyone can see, there is much opportunity for mischief. The wrong torque can be used, the wrong parts installed, a PO “quick fix” left in place, and much more. This Forum has had way too many accounts of CV attachment problems. This is a serious life-and-death situation if a CV comes loose at speed or at just the wrong time.

Best,
Grady

I’ll go edit this to add other’s good ideas and correct any errors.
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Old 05-19-2005, 08:16 AM
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What am I missing here?????

If gears in the tranny can be engaged WITHOUT depressing the clutch (as mentioned) how does this translate to CV's??
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Old 05-19-2005, 08:20 AM
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The clutch connects and disconnects the transmission from the wheels on the input side of the transmission. With a disconnected CV, the output side of the transmission (axle) is disconnected from the wheel. In the absence of a Limited Slip Differential (LSD), the differential just spins in its differential mode (one side free to spin and the other stopped with the tire not rolling) and you can shift into any gear as if you had the clutch depressed.

Good question. Not obvious to most.

Best,
Grady
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Old 05-19-2005, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kqw
What am I missing here?????

If gears in the tranny can be engaged WITHOUT depressing the clutch (as mentioned) how does this translate to CV's??
I see your point. If you DID shift into gear, the supposedly loose CV would have to be the inboard side or it would flop around and make a hell of a racket. But, OTOH, if it is the inboard side, it would behave just like he said.

If a clutch disintegrates, usually debris gets in between the flywheel and the PP making gear selection difficult. I suppose that in some circumstances, the thing could evacuate the premises and leave one with nothing. Not likely.
Old 05-19-2005, 08:41 AM
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a few more tips to fill in -- observe the correct orientation of the "dish" concavity on the Schnoor washers

new bolts are cheap - old ones can be reused (they are not stretch bolts) if you carefully check the threads & internal Allen wrenching feature. I replaced my 35 year old ones just because...

I use a Q-tip to get extra grease out of the hole for the bolt - you can put brake cleaner on it too. Someday I will be adept enough to not get the grease in there in the first place.

Don't forget to check the torque after a few hundred miles; if a tad loose then repeat later too.

It cost about $25 to get your torque wrench calibration checked - use Google if not in a big city.

Some people drill the bolt heads for wire - I'd rather buy ones with the holes already in them from a specialty bolt manf. -- but I haven't -- to me it's overkill.

Re-emphasis: note that you have to select the right bolt (ok,ok, "cap screw") dia. and the right length - be sure not to miss that part of Grady's instructions.
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Old 05-19-2005, 09:34 AM
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Just want to thank all for a very informative thread.
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Old 05-19-2005, 09:43 AM
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A BIG THANK YOU, indeed!!!!!!!

Well, just as Grady called it. The Flange had disconnected from the inboard side. All 6 bolts still in place in the flange. $ of them tightened down without issue, but 2 adjoining bolts (cap screws) didn't want to play. they started in, but got "tight" way before they were supposed to. Perhaps I shouldn't have done this, but I needed to get my car from the mall parking lot, so I made sure the 4 good ones were torqued and put a tad more twist on the 2 non-players and drove her home cautiously. She'll be a lot easier to work on in her own room.

I'm back at work now, but I'll see about tearing back into her tonight after picking up some new cap screws.

I DID notice a lot of grease all over the place. A lot more than I seem to remember when I disconnected them from the tranny last year.

Oh, while I was under there, in the mall parking lot, took a turn on the cap screws on the other side of the tranny. Those all felt snug enough.

Thanks again for all the advice, Grady and the rest of you guys. As always, Pelicans are up for the task! You guys are the best!!!!

Randy
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Old 05-19-2005, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grady Clay
The clutch connects and disconnects the transmission from the wheels on the input side of the transmission. With a disconnected CV, the output side of the transmission (axle) is disconnected from the wheel. In the absence of a Limited Slip Differential (LSD), the differential just spins in its differential mode (one side free to spin and the other stopped with the tire not rolling) and you can shift into any gear as if you had the clutch depressed.

Good question. Not obvious to most.

Best,
Grady
Well...Tie me to a horse and drag me through town...I have learned something today...

Thanks folks....
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Old 05-19-2005, 10:13 AM
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Not a day goes by where I don't learn something from this BBS.



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Old 05-19-2005, 10:16 AM
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