when mobil one 15-50 is gone, what will you use?

[kenikh]

Reaching back through my memory of my college textbooks, this is what I recall: typically the molecular chains of synth are longer, if I remember the chemistry correctly. This results in a more stable film which takes longer to reach critical molecule size due to the shear. When oil breaks down to this critical point, its film strength wanes and you get more metal on metal contact. That's where the wear comes in.

[unclebilly]

I like Delo 400 Synthetic - it's the million mile Cummins warrantee oil. I ran it in my Dodge diesel, my 944, my motorcycle, my chev truck and in my 911. Maybe this is why my oil temps never seem to get much over 170°.

[Vonzipper]

Don't forget the inefficiency of the combustion process

[unclebilly]

Originally posted by Vonzipper
Don't forget the inefficiency of the combustion chamber

Really? I thought that from having run the same oil in all 5 of my vehicles, it was finally getting 'broken in'...

[Vonzipper]

Originally posted by Vonzipper
Don't forget the inefficiency of the combustion process

I was talking about kenikh post

[kenikh]

Originally posted by Vonzipper
I was talking about kenikh post

You are correct.

[cegerer]

"I ran the Castrol TWS oil in my car for about 1000mi, had major issues with engine temp and smoke on startup, motor had about 5000mi on it, I wont go there again"

That's ludicrous. Do you really think BMW would conitnue to use this stuff if it caused "major issues" in their M cars? I've never had temp or smoke problems on my M3 (25,000 miles) nor have I heard of anybody with those problems. The M motors have 50,000 mile warranties, including free oil changes. If your theory is correct, BMW is going to be broke shortly!

[kenikh]

Expansion tolerances in an air cooled versus modern water-cooled Locasil engine are very different. It is not a stretch to think there might be problems in one and not the other. In the old days, synthetic oils used to be terrible conductors of heat and would thus never be used in air-cooled engines, for example.

[Vonzipper]

Originally posted by cegerer
"I ran the Castrol TWS oil in my car for about 1000mi, had major issues with engine temp and smoke on startup, motor had about 5000mi on it, I wont go there again"

That's ludicrous. Do you really think BMW would conitnue to use this stuff if it caused "major issues" in their M cars? I've never had temp or smoke problems on my M3 (25,000 miles) nor have I heard of anybody with those problems. The M motors have 50,000 mile warranties, including free oil changes. If your theory is correct, BMW is going to be broke shortly!

I thought the oil was going to be great in my Porsche because it worked good in the M motors, so I tried it, What I found is less than stellar results.

if you feel so positive about it step up and spend the money....

I was just giving my experience with it

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally posted by patkeefe
So, do engine components wear due to thermal and chemical breakdown of the oil, or because the crankcase and oil galleries are full of abrasives in suspension with the oil? Or a combination of both?

Isn't synthetic oil the "designer drug" of oils? Synthetic is oil which has a higher population of the good molecules than dino oil, statictically speaking...or so I have been led to believe through other discussions.

So, then, what is the difference between regular synthetic oil and extended life synthetic oil? Additives or molecules?

Pat

During operation, the pistons, cylinder liners, and turbo charger bearings experience extreme pressures and temperatures – in turbos, the bearings get to 1000F, the oil is what is cooling and lubricating them. .

Heat and pressure stress motor oil. This reduces its viscosity and accelerates the oxidation of the oil. Higher temperatures contribute to deposit build-up, cause thermal expansion of metal parts increasing mechanical wear and shorten the life of the oil. These combined effects increase metal-to-metal contact and can lead to engine failure.

Several acids are formed during the operation of an engine. These acids cause oil to oxidize and create deposits of varnish, lacquer and engine gum. As deposits build-up, they trap heat and shorten the life of the engine oil.

Abrasive particles and deposits wear down components and interfere with combustion. Valve train wear impacts timing and valve movement. Wear of the rings, pistons, and cylinder walls influences compression and combustion resulting in power loss.

Corrosive acids and abrasive particles cause wear on pistons, rings, and cylinder liners. Wear increases oil blow-by causing rapid ring, piston and oil, deterioration and wear on rings causes piston wash resulting in piston and liner wear. Heat, additive depletion, corrosive acids, and abrasive particles cause excessive wear on the crankshaft, camshaft, connecting rod, turbo, wrist pin and main bearing.

Many engine oils are only designed to meet the minimum performance specifications determined by the American Petroleum Institute or the engine manufacturer. If the oil is not changed at the correct time, the oil performance will quickly decline resulting in increased wear and engine deposits.

Proper filtration has a direct impact on wear and deposits. Studies done by Cummins Engine Corp and GM concluded that controlling particles in the 2 to 22 micron range had the greatest impact on reducing wear. Conventional oil filters only capture particles in a range from 25 to 50 microns.

[M.D. Holloway]

Thinking about all the problems or failure sources that can occur in the crankcase, how does one go about selecting premium oil? Well, experience speaks volumes but many times, your fav oil can become out of date or the company that is blending doesn’t keep up with the latest technology.

I thought about how one would go about selecting and oil, and because I am an engineer I guess I look at it empirically. Before I put the juice in the crank, I would like to compare the test data. Many oil companies worth their salt will have this data and freely share it. If they don’t it should be a red flag.

Below are the tests that I have found to speak directly to ultimate performance. I have also included the data range that you should demand form the product. I have volumes of dat to support the value levels – feel free to share this with any tribologist or lubrication expert, I would be interested if you ever find someone who disagrees with thesis information. Go get a diet coke or a cup of coffee, this is gonna take a few minutes!

Viscosity – Tests used to determine the viscosity of an engine oil and the stability of viscosity due to temperature changes.
Viscosity Index: ASTM D 2270 measures the variation in kinematic viscosity due to changes in temperature. The higher the number, the better. 10W30 grade engine oil must have a viscosity index of at least 125; 15W40 grade engine oil must have a viscosity index of at least 130, 20W50 grades must have a viscosity index of 135 or higher.
Viscosity by Cold Cranking Simulator: ASTM D 2602 measures the apparent viscosity of the oil at cold temperatures; the results are related to the cranking characteristics of the oil. The lower viscosity reading, the better. 10W30 and 15W40 grade engine oils should have a viscosity of less than 2850 centipoise, 20W50 grade engines oils should be less than 3000 centipose.
Viscosity at High Shear Rate and High Temperature: ASTM D 4683 mimics conditions encountered in the bearings of automotive engines in severe service; 10W30 and 15W40 grade engine oils should have a viscosity greater than 3.5 centipoise., the 20W50 should be greater than 4.5 centipose.

Engine Oil Contents – Tests used to quantify specific contents of engine oil.
Total Base Number (TBN): ASTM D 2896 measures the engine oil’s ability to neutralize acid formation; the higher the TBN, the better. The highest rating is 14. Because of high sulfur fuels that are now used, the engine oil must be able to maintain a TBN retention of at least 50% after 250 hours of continuous operation. The original TBN should be between 12 and 14.
Phosphorous/Zinc Content: ASTM D 5158 measure the amount of additive elements, wear metals, and contaminants in lubricating oils. Phosphorous and zinc are part of an anti-wear package; a higher percentage is better. Engine oils should have a phosphorous content of greater than 0.10% and zinc content greater than 0.12%. Years ago, there was a concern about these compounds, today, they have been stabilized
Sulfated Ash Content: ASTM D 874 measures the amount of sulfated ash from unused lubricating oils containing additives; the less amount of sulfated ash, the better. Engine oils should have sulfated ash less than 1.5%. This makes for a difficult balance, the compounds that contribute to ash are also the compounds that provide acid nuetrailzation, rust and corrosion protection and even anti-wear performance.

Fluidity – Tests used to determine the flowability of engine oil at various temperatures.
Borderline Pumping Temperature: ASTM D 3829 measures the lowest temperature at which engine oil can be continuously and adequately supplied to the oil pump inlet of an automotive engine. 10W30 grade engine oil should have a borderline pumping temperature of lower than –20°C; 15W40 lower than –15°C and 20W50 lower than 10°C

Stable Pour Point: FTM 203C measures the lowest temperature at which movement of the fluid is observed; the lower the pour point, the better utility the fluid has for certain applications at low temperatures. 10W30 grade engine oil should have a pour point lower than –28°C; 15W40 lower than –22°C and 20W50 lower than -15°C

Shear Stability – Tests used to determine stability of engine oil in high-shear conditions.
Shear Stability Index: ASTM D 3945 measures the percent viscosity loss at 100°C of polymer-containing fluids when evaluated by using the Fuel Injector Shear Stability Test (FISST); the less viscosity loss, the better. Engine oils should have less than 7.0% loss.

I hope this information helps. Feel free to call me anytime you want, I love this stuff! 214-450-7864 (cell). And remember, oil is cheaper than metal!

[mjshira]

what about KY? I have always found its properties to be sound...;-)

[mjshira]

sorry, had to do it. just kidding, really great info.

[M.D. Holloway]

try the stuff that warms up! good solo, better with the wife! Now thats a lube...

[mjshira]

Mike

then what do you think caused someone on this thread issues with 10w60 Castrol syn. ?

what is the best oil out there for a 911 engine?

[M.D. Holloway]

Thats a really tough question because I have seen some realy great oils fail and some really average oils last forever. Engines are as differnt as people.

Every system is so different - it's like our bodies. My son doesn't eat meat of any kind - by choice. He doesn't suffer from any illnesses or is smaller or weaker then the other kids his age - just the opposite. He is healthy as a horse (save a broken arm) and is a bit taller and broader thanthe other kids his age. I can't say that would work for other kids, but it works for him.

Engine oils are the same. Some guys on this thread will swear to the oils such as Mobil 1, Castrol, Red Line, Certified Labs, Shell and even the Amsoil cult oil. I've known guys to put in gear oil improver into the crank and it works for them. Go figuer.

I don't mean to evade the question and the only true way to decide is to try different ones out. It actually makes for a very small investment that can actually yield some valuable insight.

As soon as STARTA XTREME 20W50 gets the API approval (in a few months), I will provide it to a bunch of you guys at no charge to see what you all think. It won't ***** anything up - you may see great things, you not see any difference at all. For some of you I will also provide free oil analysis. This is the beginnings of the sort of data that can help you make a good choice in the stuff that has a pretty direct influenece on engine reliability.

[mjshira]

based on the analysis here the 10w60 should be the best no? especially if you can change it at normal intervals.

[M.D. Holloway]

A manonce asked a zen master "was it easy to obtain enlighenment?"
He replied "very difficult, most difficult thing ever!"

He asked a second zen master "was it difficult to obtain enlightment?"
The second zen mater replied "the easiest thing in the world, breathing was more difficult!"

He asked a third zen master "what was it like gaining enlightenment?"
The third third zen master relied "not easy, not difficult, not either, must have no mind...you will know, must have no eyes, you will see...must have no ears and you will hear".

You already know the answer...

[DG624]

Lubemaster,

I finally used the engine cleaner you sent. I haven't noticed any major changes but I feel that it is always good to try and use some type of cleaner every 3-5,000. I also change the oil filter after and usually the oil. I am trying to get a better oil filter (2-22 micro range) to reduce wear and extend oil life. I would be interested in the oil analysis then to check properties and wear.

Thanks for all of the products I have not had a chance to use most of them yet. I will tell you how they work.

My recent reading on oil describes how oil is still in good shape (except for grit) and if properly filtered will last 20-40,000 miles. I am not going to try this until I have better filtering.

[tshih]

kenikh, your recall of the chemistry of oils is partially correct. The synthetics are longer chain molecules, however, structurally they are esters instead of pure hydrocarbons (higher weight oils 12-15 carbon chain oils, versus 8 carbon branch chains which is octane or gasoline). The ester in organic chemistry nomenclature (proper classification and name) is RCOOR' made from the carboxylic acid RCOOH and alcohol R'OH minus one H2O (water). These esters are less resistant to break up back into their components in the presence of strong acids (sulfuric, nitric, etc) which are