track safety thread - roll call what's the correct approach

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

ABS is terrible on truly slippery surfaces. Worse than useless. Formal tests have proven this.

Stephan

[Emission]

A few years ago I went off the track in an ABS-equipped BMW 330i. I spun off at about 60 mph into the loose dirt/sand. Both feet down hard (clutch and brake) and the car kept going and going and going... I was worried I was going to run back on the track (other side) against the traffic!

ABS is great on the track, off the track it is a different story.

[stuartj]

This is the thing. A spinning car will stop extremely quickly with all four wheels locked, especially once its gets sideways to the direction travel. On dirt it will dig a hole and stop itself. Grass is always a challenge. But if the wheels cant lock....

ABS is great on the road, both for err, quicker drivers and for a soccer mom in her 2 ton SUV on wet day.

When a car is travelling backwards, what does ABS do? Does it funcion the same way as if the car were travelling forwards?

[jimbauman]

OK - tsniu posted a wider aerial photo of the CGT crash area over on this thread:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/224465-carerra-gt-driver-pass-killed-ca-speedway-post1952912.html#post1952912

Scroll down to near the bottom for his post. Now, I don't know about your events, but I don't think PCA, NCRC or any other responsible group would allow a track to set up a hard wall this way...where a car going off track at a slight angle can impact a wall at high speed directly head on. To me this is just nuts.

JB

[SergioK]

Originally posted by emcon5
RE Instructors: Regardless of the skill they possess, some people are simply better at teaching at others. Two instructors, one has only driven track days, one is a F1 driver. The guy you as a student will get the most from is the one who is better teacher.

Quite true!

[ted]

Originally posted by Formerly Steve Wilkinson
Oh, please. In my work as a car writer, I've ridden with and been informally instructed by a dozen or more truly world-class racecar drivers over the years,from Eric Carlsson to Hurley Haywood to Tom Kristensen. I've also been enthusiastically doing DEs for several years now, and I can tell you that typical DE instructors and seriously good drivers/intructors are on two differen planets, if not two different solar systems.

I have a friend and neighbor who is a Quattro Club (or whatever it's called now) DE instructor. He's never been in anything faster or more race-prepped than his own moderately modified quasi-S6, and he's scary enough that several people in our local ambulance corps (where he and I are both volunteer drivers) refuse to ride with him.

I don't mean he's the paradigm for all DE instructors, I just mean it's a seriously mixed bag.

Stephan

Stephan, I think pro racers are over qualified to instruct at a DE.
I mean you had HH in your car and all you got was car control instruction?
HH has a lot more to offer than just car control instruction.

HH would be best used for advanced racing instruction.
Imho you should not expect any racing instruction at a DE event.

Comparing HH to amateur/volunteer DE instructors is as out of line as expecting private pilot flight instructors to be accomplished fighter pilots.

To be a good DE instructor one does not have to be a current or past great pro driver.
For example Pro sports teams succeed with coaches that may not have been MVP players or maybe never even played at the pro level.

Our local PCA philosophy is to learn car control skills at the AX venues. Then with adequate car control skills enter the DE and learn to drive with traffic.

Many "non racer" though experienced AX/DE/TT instructors can teach you basic car control.

Think twice next time you choose to discount the skill, effort and contribution good amateur/volunteer DE instructors have made at local tracks everywhere.

Stephan were you ever a qualified DE instructor?

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by stuartj

Look at the photos of the C-GT crash, clearly this was a high speed off. The grass leading up to the point of impact on the wall shows no evidence of vehicle retardardation. Theres hardly even evidence of tyre tracks. We all know that driver, apparently an experienced guy, would have been trying to point that car away from the wall and wash off speed.

Perhaps that state of the art Porsche, didnt allow him to steer or slow on the grass at high speed?

I think that you're missing a point. This was a DE, not a race. Didn't the driver recognize the danger of that area of the track? Why was he doing 160 mph into an obviously dangerous situation.

Add to this that apparently part of the problem was the "uncontrolled" (for the lack of a better word) entry of another car onto the track that clipped the C-GT. So now we have 2 dangerous situations (pit-out and perpindicular wall) into which the driver drove at an unreasonalbe speed. "Unreasonable" in this case defined by the results.

Originally posted by ted
HH would be best used for advanced racing instruction.

Why are you discounting the value of a "professional" racing instructor to the novice track driver? The reality is that the crucible of racing has taught these people far more about surviving at high speed then any number of DE events. There is far more to driving safely in a high speed track situation then just "learning the line" and "car control". Some examples from my own experience.

1) Manditory: "Car Control" skills. I appreciate the use of the words, but what does repeated driving around the same track teach about car control. Car control is all about controlling the car near it's limits. How many DE's require sign-off with Slalom driving and spin control (at relatively low speeds) before you can progress to higher speeds? The Professional schools do this as part of their corriculum. The student will have spun their car (repeatedly) prior to travelling any turning laps.

2) The "Line", The "Line"!!!. Someone once pointed out to me (regarding generals) that "Amateurs talk tactics, Professionals talk logistics". To some degree the same applies to track driving -- (forgive the paraphrase) -- Amateurs talk about the line, Professionals talk about situational awareness. Learning the line of the track that we were on was hardly a major milestone when I took Skip Barber. Learning how to learn the line of any track was a major part of the training. A big part of this was how to work up to speed and situational awareness (weather, temperatures, traffic, etc). These were taught in class-room sessions (note the plural) and then only practiced on the track. There was also between session critiques (which was often very pointed, but always in good humor ) of EVERY session and driver.

3) Recovery. I'm not aware of DE's spending any time on what a driver needs to do once their in "over their head". Sure, a quick "war story" about "When you spin, both feet in", but that's not enough! There needs to be more more discussion of how to catch a loose car, what to do if you're understeering off, counter-steering and more, and then follow it up with excercises and practices.

It is these critical elements of the teaching process as I described above which seem to be missing from DE events in their desire to give everyone lots of track time. A lot of track time is a noble goal, no doubt. But really a penny-wise, pound-short solution when you consider the results of a high-speed error when on-track.

[ted]

Originally posted by jluetjen

Why are you discounting the value of a "professional" racing instructor to the novice track driver? The reality is that the crucible of racing has taught these people far more about surviving at high speed then any number of DE events. There is far more to driving safely in a high speed track situation then just "learning the line" and "car control". Some examples from my own experience.

True John, still many talented performance drivers have chosen never to race at the amateur or pro level. I'm saying these instructors are a good resource. Remember at the big expensive pro driving schools not every instructor is going to have pro racing experience. I do race but I don't teach my DE students how to race.

Originally posted by jluetjen

1) Manditory: "Car Control" skills. I appreciate the use of the words, but what does repeated driving around the same track teach about car control. Car control is all about controlling the car near it's limits. How many DE's require sign-off with Slalom driving and spin control (at relatively low speeds) before you can progress to higher speeds? The Professional schools do this as part of their corriculum. The student will have spun their car (repeatedly) prior to travelling any turning laps.

Yes and my local PCA has requirements for first time DE students to have several AX events (6 with instruction) or complete the local 3 day Performance driving school and 4 AX events (all with instruction) prior to being eligible to enter a PCA DE. PCA does require and provide basic car control skills before permitting a student to progress to DE. This avoids dangerous situations where at some other DE events students are trying to learn car control at speed in traffic. Some students can be impatient and feel AX speeds don’t interest them. Yet I doubt they have really considered the alternative consequences of spinning in a DE at 100 mph into a field, fence or worse traffic. Still other students may not even know a training structure like PCA exsists.

Originally posted by jluetjen

2) The "Line", The "Line"!!!. Someone once pointed out to me (regarding generals) that "Amateurs talk tactics, Professionals talk logistics". To some degree the same applies to track driving -- (forgive the paraphrase) -- Amateurs talk about the line, Professionals talk about situational awareness. Learning the line of the track that we were on was hardly a major milestone when I took Skip Barber. Learning how to learn the line of any track was a major part of the training. A big part of this was how to work up to speed and situational awareness (weather, temperatures, traffic, etc). These were taught in class-room sessions (note the plural) and then only practiced on the track. There was also between session critiques (which was often very pointed, but always in good humor ) of EVERY session and driver.

I agree. Car control and knowing the line should be talents the first time DE driver has gained from his prior AX or performance driving school experiences. True DE is all about SA. A race driver would be very helpful with the SA portion too, though so are many amateur DE/TT instructors. I think a race driver would be a better resource for tips on driving off line, passing, race starts and other race related issues.

Originally posted by jluetjen

3) Recovery. I'm not aware of DE's spending any time on what a driver needs to do once their in "over their head". Sure, a quick "war story" about "When you spin, both feet in", but that's not enough! There needs to be more more discussion of how to catch a loose car, what to do if you're understeering off, counter-steering and more, and then follow it up with excercises and practices.

That should not be taught at DE speeds in DE traffic. Again our first time DE drivers are groomed for that prior to being allowed in traffic at higher speeds.

Originally posted by jluetjen

It is these critical elements of the teaching process as I described above which seem to be missing from DE events in their desire to give everyone lots of track time. A lot of track time is a noble goal, no doubt. But really a penny-wise, pound-short solution when you consider the results of a high-speed error when on-track.

I know the PCA process is not followed by many independent DE promoters. Others have a goal to sell out events. I really would not want to train a first time performance driver at higher DE/TT speeds in traffic. As an instructor I want to minimize my exposure to unnecessary risks as well. I do enjoying instructing first time students at AX events and at the 3 day Performance driving school. I also find it rewarding to instruct experienced AX drivers at the DE/TT level. Although I have raced and I enjoy discussing racing with my race buddies I respect my limited racing experiance. I know I am not qualified to be a racing instructor.

So on topic for DE safety...
Go through the system and be sure to have a good performance driving foundation before you attempt higher speeds in traffic. If your first DE is at an event like PCA which does have minimum prior driving experience requirements to enter then you will be safer knowing others around you have been taught the basic car control skills already. At our DE events only instructors are allowed to ride as passengers. With this structure perhaps your chances of needing to use all the best safety equipment will be reduced.

No matter how you go about it at least we are all talking about finding our limits on the track and not the street.

[JeremyD]

Well -

#1 On that particular course (where the CGT crashed) , the position of the wall looks very dangerous. I look for run outs for all the corners when I am driving - look at the ariel shot - wow.

#2 On the level of instruction I have received - maybe it's Florida and our proximity to Sebring, Daytona and Homestead. Maybe it's because of the level of people who race elsewhere and retire here - I don't know but the level and the competency of my DE instructers has been staggering. I'm talking probably an average of 15 years of SCCA - POC racing. When I am there - I want to be a sponge -

#3 if I was to change anything with our PCA DE - I would recommend they set up a skidpath in the parking lot - or a wide open space for all the green group (and maybe even blue group too) . You go out in the parking lot and spin - a few times. Say 5 a piece, each direction. See how it feels - see what it's like to catch the car and correct. I've done it a few times in an Autocross - but it's one of the things that I MADE my friend do in a parking lot before he drove my car at a DE.

Lastly - this is a complex issue. It's one where if there is a breakdown anywhere - the results can be dire. Who's to say there wasn't a mechanical break down? Who's to say he didn't have a flat or a missed gear shift? How about a front rotor locking up? We can speculate all we want - but I recommend that the best thing we can do is acknowledge it - and learn from it.

[jluetjen]

Ted; Despite my contrary tone, I think that we're in agreement on the sorts of things that should be happening before people are unleashed on the track. From reading some of other posts, it's not always clear that they were/are.

The other thing that I'm seeing agreement on is just because you have a 911 (with or without a roll bar), that the skill and common sense of the driver is still the most important safety feature that can be added to a car before going on-track.