996 ENGINE FAILURES? Yep. Trashed Engine last week - help!!!

[CarreraS2]

California does not require that you pay for insurance to protect your automobile. California could care less if your automobile gets damaged and you don't have insurance to fix it.

Only liability insurance is required in California. In other words, insurance to pay for damage you do to someone else's car, property or person.

[84porsche]

Originally posted by SoCal911SC
Only liability insurance is required in California. In other words, insurance to pay for damage you do to someone else's car, property or person.

Brian,

Good point, for some reason I was hoping that everyone would have full coverage insurance but it explains why some other cars are driving around with huge dents, dings, smashed back ends, faulty tires and anything else that doesn't get fixed promptly. I get tired of seeing crap all over our road ways.

[aturboman]

I've worked as a service director for over 10 years at a dealership. These types of failures are normally given "goodwill' considerations by the manufacturer & dealer. My suggestion is first talk to the service manager or service director. If this vehicle was really service at a dealer and has the records to prove it then his case is strong for some assistance. Ownership also has alot to do with offers of goodwill. Most manufacturer's have guidelines that relate to "major component failures" prior to a set mileage cap. How many months and miles the vehicle is out of warranty will determine how much they will cover, and if the car is owned by the original owner also may play a role. I know in my situation the decision to offer goodwill was with me and then had to be supported to the factory for authorization. A professional and polite discussion with the service manager is a good start. The ranting and raving will get you no where fast except facing a large bill. Remember "goodwill" is a write off the manufacturer budgets to maintain customer loyalty to the product. It is not a guarantee, that ended with the warranty.

[OZCarrera3]

Well, yet another reason again why not to buy a 996 (or any other post '95 Porsche), unless its a GT3 (as yet I haven't heard any problems with their engines which are based on the air-cooled engine blocks).

See, this is what happens when accountants are left to run the business. the company ends up cutting corners on design, development and more importantly support for your valued clients, just to improve profitability for the shareholders. I know that Porsche may not be around now if it hadn't been for them, but I'm starting to wonder if a 'proud' death (i.e. with quality cars like the 993) might have been better than seeing the company sink into disrepute for building such critically flawed designs, which in turn will result in reduced sales and abysmal resale values for the owners (as we are already seeing).

Oh, and here's another example, there's a guy in our PC that had the gearbox fail on his 996 just after its warranty expired. Of course you cannot rebuild them, you have to buy a new one for $AUS20k. Thankfully on this occasion Porsche came to the party and supplied a no cost replacement, but what does this say for enthusiasts such as us 10-20 years down the track when the gearboxes (and other items) need to be rebuilt?

Sorry for the rant, but its just such a damn shame.

[TRE Cup]

Have some of you forgotten the "smog years" here with the 75-77 2.7? The head stud problem was so bad that we coined a term "TSPP" for those engines. The pronunciation sounded a lot like the air being sucked back in each loose cylinder when turning over. TSPP= Typical Stud Pulling Pig
Not their finest hour either.
A lot of new technology went into the 986/996 motors- but as we've seen best laid plans......
The GT3 RSRs in the first 24 hour race at Daytona had a remarkable rate of engine failure- Didn't the Porsche parts truck run out? Reason? "Sand left over from the delicate casting process of the new heads" was what I heard.
So their laundry gets washed in public

[techweenie]

aturboman is right.

A dealer-serviced car is likeliest to get a "goodwill" adjustment. Escalate the matter beyond your dealer service manager to the area rep (called a Regional Service Manager in the U.S.). That level and above, they can authorize a replacement. What typically happens in a "goodwill" job is you get the engine (a rebuilt one) but pay the swap labor.

[aturboman]

Techweenie is also right. A lot of times a compromise is reached where the manufacturer pays parts and customer pays labor, or some percentage split. One trick on labor is the dealer "should" do it at warranty labor time not customer pay time. Yes there is a difference This might piss off some service managers reading this but it is only fair since the job is technically a warranty repair.

[3.8RSR]

Everyone - thank you for all your comments and suggestions so far. We are very gratefull for your feedback.

Souk - it is encouraging to hear "the factory has replaced engines for lesser reasons". Whilst the engine has been ordered we need to get back to them with our case for compensation.

The early Boxter dropped sleeve problem was mentioned to me by the independent Porsche shop also when discussing the water pumper problems.

Iggy - I should have said it might be common in the 928GTS (ie to pop cylinder walls due to head gasket failure) but this was only one comment by one shop here. Your guys have more 928GTS's of them over there than we do, so you would know for sure if there is any issue there.

Thinking about it, one interpretation of the popped cylinder wall might be that the rods and crank are so strong, they wont break, and the thin cyl wall is the weakest link. The point is, you get a trashed engine block that is (it seems) unable/ unviable to be rebuilt here. That is not right and should be preventable with regular maintenence. What happened to Porsches durability?
This is a BREACH OF REPUTATION!

TRE Cup - "We've replaced 2 motors due to cracked cylinder sleeves on 996's. No abuse, no lack of maintenance- just regular everyday driving"
Well that fits our situation here exactly. This car mainly drives a 15min run morning and night... and it should only suffer from cobwebs in my opinion! The fact it was just serviced makes it very unpalletable.

Would there be any visible external signs of major head problems about to occur?

Also I agree re the pulled head studs in the 2.7's as I had one. What about the SC? I bought a 3.0SC from the UK with 160,000km and when I got it on the engine stand and rotated it with the valve covers off, I was surprised to see 3 x broken head studs which fell out! Divilar I think they called them. A spot of trouble with corrosion I read, but the engineers said they expanded nicely!

Neilk - "With 996 engines useless to the air cooled crowd, I bet you could get a great deal on a used one."

My exact thoughts. I checked on Ebay and LA Porsche have a 2002 996 engine complete less harness/computer, with only 10,000Km for $US 7500 = $A10,000 plus dutytax/freight of about $A2000 so that would seem a great deal. The problem is, it is a US spec engine and might not suit the Aus or ROW spec cars, the cams/computer/wiring needs could be different...it could be a manual engine and not suit the Tip... It was suggested to me it could be a minefield. Then you have complience issues also. My friend agreed this was probably not worth the hassle, and the car would be off the road potentially for a lot longer. Especially if complications arose. And it would also not have any warranty.

Kenikh - the reason I'm helping my friend is I also recommended a Porsche to him. It has been a good car, till now. Actually I did suggest a 993 Carrera S with the wide body and Turbo brakes, but he was keen on the new shape and "better technology". Just seems he missed the better technology part as it turns out.

The $24K is one thing. Wasting it is another. We need Porsche to suggest how this headgasket timebomb can be can avoided. Can any Porsche specialists please comment? Would a compression test show it?

"Porsche AG, please speak up and own up to this mess!"
I agree.

Anthony - The $A24,000 includes airfreight from Germany. If that was about say $1500, $A22,500 = $US16,875 at our approx exchange rate of $US0.75 for each aussie dollar.

For your interest the car is immaculate, full factory service history, silver/black leather, Tip, and worth here between $85 - $95K ($US64K - $US71K) so that explains the difference in parts costs! The new engine price is $A62K !!!
Gulp.

A Turboman - thanks for your detailed response. Very good points. The discussions have been very cordial but so far related to why a rebuild was not offered. That seems to have been answered in part by the (excessive) parts costs making an airfreighted motor cheaper.

OZCarrera3 - "but what does this say for enthusiasts such as us 10-20 years down the track when the gearboxes (and other items) need to be rebuilt?" This is absolutely right. So that means the Engines and Box could be a problem if unable to be rebuilt? Gee that is madness. Do Porsche Aust realise this? An attempt at future profit or lost customers?

Lucky we are enthusiasts prepared to overlook almost every thing...

Techweenie - yes we will see how we go with the dealer and then escalate this if necessary. It would be good to hear more cases of like head gasket problems, and if Porsche has come to the party elsewhere.

Thanks again everyone.

Any other early 996 engine failure experiences and happy service outcomes?

[304065]

A friend of mine just took his '02 boxster S in for service. They informed him that the engine was leaking and replaced it under warranty. The service manager said that they had CRATES of new engines sitting in a warehouse ready to deal with this problem, and that they were doing two per week!

Porsche should do the right thing and recall the engines. A nasty class-action would not help.

[3.8RSR]

That is really unbelievable when you think of the design expertise that went into the Boxter and how critical a car it was for the company at the time.

[Adam]

Any other early 996 engine failure experiences and happy service outcomes?

Bruce - a friend of mine bought an '02 Carrera 3.6 tip, his first Porsche. After barely 1,500kms he suffered the RMS fault. He was stunned, as he'd be carefully running in the car as directed (he's a middle-aged MD) and it shook his confidence with the brand to the core. They loaned him another car for weeks until they fixed it. Then, at approx 2,500kms the car blew a head gasket and detonated while cruising along quietly.

They offered to rebuild the engine, but he refused and the head of Porsche Victoria came out to his house and ordered a full replacement car at no charge. He's had the 2nd 996 ever since and it hasn't missed a beat, but he was seriously considering their offer of a full refund and buying a new M3. From what he was told, these 996 engine failures aren't uncommon (but then, at the time, every E46 M3 running around was grenading itself too!).

[OZCarrera3]

I must admit to a very strong bias towards all things European, particularly German Cars that are supposed to be some of the most technologically and engineeringly sound vehicles on the market. But given the comments in this post and others relating to major engine detonations in numerous Porshces/BMWs/Audi's, I'm starting to feel that I am more than little misguided.

From another perspective, I can't recall the last time that I heard of any Japanese manufacturers being affected in similar a manner, other than Subaru WRX's with their gearbox and clutch issues (which are really as a result of abuse of the 4wd grip). I mean I've seen plenty of "ricer" specials blow turbo's etc at track days, but these cars have generally had the boost turned up so far that it is only a matter of time before they blew anyway.

Has anyone heard of other manufacturers suffering from significant recurring engine and gearbox failures?

[Decolliber]

Has Porsche claimed to have fixed this problem with the 997, or is it basically the same engine?

[Beethoven]

From what I gather from the German Porsche forum (Elfertreff.de., mostly pumpers) the engine case failures are due to a manufacturing error that (I believe) has to do with the alloy of case; the RMS failures have to with the mating surfaces. Apparently, at least the alloy problem has been solved in the 997 (and earlier), not sure about the RMS.
Porsche has been replacing engines regularly on these models, sometimes two or three times. You have got to wonder how much money Porsche is really making if despite this costly failure they're still the most profitable car company on the planet/

[Don Plumley]

Originally posted by OZCarrera3
Has anyone heard of other manufacturers suffering from significant recurring engine and gearbox failures?

Honda transmissions.

BMW E4 M3 engines had a their time in the sun.

[epbrown]

Originally posted by Decolliber
Has Porsche claimed to have fixed this problem with the 997, or is it basically the same engine?

The 997 is based on the same engine case and has the same potential for RMS problems.

Emanuel

[Steve W]

Well, tonight I'm driving my friend's 996 cruising along the freeway at 60 mph, when the engine starts shaking real bad, starts cutting in and out, and big cloud of smoke emminates from the back, and the engine is blown! Oil dripping everywhere, and cranking the motor makes a loud putt sound, like there's a hole somewhere in the crankcase. Car only has 26k miles on it - I'm a Porsche fan, but this motor is a POS.

[3.8RSR]

Beethoven -

From what I gather from the German Porsche forum (Elfertreff.de., mostly pumpers) the engine case failures are due to a manufacturing error that (I believe) has to do with the alloy of case; the RMS failures have to with the mating surfaces.

Can you kindly provide more info on this? Does this directly relate to sudden head gasket failure and cracked cylinders/block? Any link you can post about the might be of great assistance. Thanks.

the engine starts shaking real bad, starts cutting in and out, and big cloud of smoke emminates from the back, and the engine is blown! Oil dripping everywhere

Steve W - Sorry to hear of your big blow up. What is the build date of this one? 26K is low milage thats for sure. Not even run in. Can you please post what Porsche have to say when they inspect it?
It is beyond a joke, surely Porsche should have recalled these cars or come up with a TSB or preventitive maintence schedule. Has this happened in Germany or anywhere, does anyone know?

[beepbeep]

Hmm...I believe reason for engines detonating is not that PAG has bad engineers but bean-counters that had too much to say.

Example:

SAAB 9000 and it's B234 engine were bulletproof. You could skip oil-change sometimes and it would keep running.

When new modell (9-5) was to be introduced some bean-counter came to brilliant idea on how to decrease fuel consumption for this old iron-block motor:

They took basic 9000 engine and fitted thiner/weaker/lighter pistons (in order to reduce internal friction) and thiner piston rings...

It seemed like a good idea at time, but few years later motors started blowing up at alarming rate. Problem was that new "low friction" piston rings let lot's of combustion gases escape down to oil-sump, deteriorating quality of oil etc. They also removed one cooling ring from turbocharger, making turbo run hot which put even greater strain on oil.

So it suddenly became very important to religiously change oil at given intervals, otherwise you would risk dreaded oil-sludge problem. This actually increased dealer profits as customers took they cars more often for service.

Unfortunately, news break out and SAAB (GM) was forced to prolong their engine warranty to 8 years. It's now getting common for dealers to change shortblocks on engines that only went 100000 miles, something that was previously unheard of.

What I'm trying to say is that manufacturers are aggressivly trying to increase profit by sometimes deteriorating quality. It's a gamble that sometimes backfires...

PAG removed dry-sump from 996 and Boxter engines for example. They probably calculated that it would be cheaper to change those 0.30% percent of engines that blow up than pay for extra gadgets to be installed in every engine.

[3.8RSR]

They offered to rebuild the engine, but he refused and the head of Porsche Victoria came out to his house and ordered a full replacement car at no charge.

Thanks Adam. Two blow up seems a bit more than a coincidence! Sounds like Porsche handled it nicely, but Im not sure if a 7 year old car will get the same generousity. The low milage and full factory service history is what we have to depend on. It would be good if we can demonstrate a likely factory manufacturing fault or poor service work. We only have the newfound knowledge that this is happening frequently, so it seems. But of course this could still be a low percentage of the cars built. We will need to see how the dealer responds to our friendly discussion.