Serious Drivers Ed questions (with pic)

[1982911sc]

Hey all,
Wanted an honest assesment of what you think about the effect of Drivers Ed on our incredible machines (911 SC in this case):

First, beyond brake pads and tires do you think 4 or 5 driver ed runs on a track each year is damaging to the vehicle...assuming it is properly maintained and in good running order....I have heard over and over again that these cars are made for this...and my car sure seems to handle the track like it was made for it but deep in the back of my mind I feel guilty about it sometimes. Will I need a new tranny and engine at the end of the season??

Second, do you feel that this would ever take away from the value of the vehicle, that is the other part that I think about. My car is all original save the necessary updates and I only use OEM replacement parts when possible.....Excellent condition 1982 Targa with only 78,000 documented miles, all service, etc....Is this car to nice to track??? Would I be a fool to keep tracking it? Should I sell it and buy a more track ready car...or keep it and buy an old 944 or something to have fun with? (I cant afford to really have two kickass 911's in the garage).

I have only done one Drivers Ed and it was one of the most intoxicating experiences I have had in a looong time...so cool. I want to do it again but am weary for the reasons above......Enjoy the pic of my first track day!

Thanks!

[ErVikingo]

Unless you cause damage to the car by for example overrevving it, Driver's Ed is nothing more than spirited driving in a controlled environment.

As to value of the car, this is a "perception" as a seller you'll always believe that the car is worth more due to the upgrades you've made to it but the buyer will low ball you due to the "abuse" of a Driver's Ed.

Frankly, I see cars that are abused much more on the streets.

In my mind, a properly setup car that has been used for DE is normally better maintained and in better shape than a street queen. Specially the brakes and suspension systems !

Caveat, value is in the eyes of the beholder ! Thinks of the "arms length transaction theory".

[JeremyD]

My car is better maintained now that I started tracking it -

My take is - drive what you have...

[Craig 930 RS]

Rocks chips, hot brakes (get cooling!) and more wear on pads and tires......

That's it!

[targa88]

The only damage would be loss of control and impact- which can happen on the open road.
DEW teaches you to drive better, better vision, smoother, which can only help off the track. Your car can handle the track and you will enjoy it more.
As you do more track events, you will gain incremental knowledge of your car. Ultimately providing better maintenance.

[Superman]

What we know, is this: Porsches are as reliable as framing hammers and you can flog them mercilessly all day long. Porsche's favorite races are the ones that go 24 hours, particularly if the track itself is brutal. Attrition is incredible and that works in Porsche's favor.

I also notice, in terms of personal observation, that my SC LOVES to autocross. She's like a Setter when you reach for the leash and your jacket. On the morning of autocross, she seems to run smoothly and with excellent power. But that's nuthin' compared to how she leaves an autocross event. There is no question that this car runs better after a flogging.

[Jack Olsen]

Honest assessment? 1) Letting your car sit in the garage still allows many items on it to degrade, over time, so it's damaging your car. 2) Driving on public roads also causes wear, and is damaging your car and reducing its resale value. 3) Tracking your car will accelerate the damage caused by driving your car and will decrease its resale value, unless you use the car to win some professional races like Le Mans.

But you have to ask yourself why you bought the car in the first place. The way I see it is that it's a lousy investment, from a financial point of view. And it's a blast to drive, from a you-only-live-once point of view.

To me, keeping a Porsche 'pristine' is like living your whole life in a house with plastic covers on all the furniture. 911 are mass-produced automobiles. With the exception of a small handful of models, none of them are so rare that they shouldn't be enjoyed.

I say get some paint protection for the front and watch your oil temps. Then go out and have a blast on a racetrack as often as you can swing it.

[911teo]

Originally posted by ErVikingo


In my mind, a properly setup car that has been used for DE is normally better maintained and in better shape than a street queen.

When I was in the mkt for my 911 I was looking for someone that HAD tracked the car. My thought process was that if you go and risk your neck on the track you want to do it with the car in the best shape possible.

Now your targa would probably sell for$11-14k. I think it's difficult to find a track prepped car for much less.

I say keep it and enjoy it. As Craig said stone chips could be a major PITA.. but you can alway get a bra...

I am afraid you just went down a very slippery slope. I am sure you are already considering harder compound pads, brake cooling etc. Next thing will be a new set of shocks, then new bearings, stiffer bars, new tires etc....

But there is nothing like pushing your street car to its limit!
Have fun!!!!!!

[nostatic]

if you don't sell it, resale value doesn't matter.

Run into a big chunk of concrete. It will change your perception of the car.

Track it. It isn't too nice. And it is sad for a competent piece of machinery to be oogled like a painting. Flog it.

[JeremyD]

Yeah a 911 at the track is like a dog when you let it off the leash! woo woo!

[VaSteve]

I see advertised all the time in Pano cars that have never seen the track. I found that after my 2 track experiences, mine actually ran much better when nice and warmed up. Makes me wonder if those cars aren't the "couch potato" equivalents in the automotive world.

I often have that debate with myself....do I really want to bang it up? Then again, as others have pointed out, you can wreck on the highway.

And don't let any of these "Targa Haters" tell you you need a coupe....(See my sig!)

[ErVikingo]

As a matter of comparison, my garage queen leaks oil due to lack of use (and thus quenching of seals,...) also, its a PITA to start after sitting for a while. My track car does not leak and starts right up

[Jim Richards]

Gee Va(Steve), you got enough magnetic vinyl protecting your "couch potato?"

[anthony]

Originally posted by 1982911sc
Should I sell it and buy a more track ready car...or keep it and buy an old 944 or something to have fun with?

I think just doing DE schools a few times a year is fine with your car. It depends on whether you have aspirations beyond that. Lots of folks fall down that slippery slope and then turn their street car into a track car or they just buy a whole separate car for DE/TT.

[JeremyD]

Originally posted by Jim Richards
Gee Va(Steve), you got enough magnetic vinyl protecting your "couch potato?"

Yeah - that almost qualifies as a 'track condom"

[SandyI]

One of the more tragic threads I saw recently was a guy selling a mid-1990's Porsche with less than 5,000 total miles on it. All I could think about was all the years and miles that he had missed out on. You want an investment? Sell your car and buy some tax free muni bonds. You own a Porsche. It's your DUTY to drive it as fast as you can, as often as you can. When it comes time to sell my stock 911E, I know the guy who buys it will appreciate the fact that my suspension set-up works about 1,000% better than stock due to my time at Streets of Willow. Every rock chip is a badge of honor.

[VaSteve]

Originally posted by Jeremy964
Yeah - that almost qualifies as a 'track condom"

LOL

Without the front spoiler I need the extra weight to hold down the front end a little!!

That's the Elephant Racing product (and a lot of racer tape). The tape makes it easy to remove the bugs I acquired on the way to the track.

I'm sloooooooooow so there is no chance of getting debris from the car in front of me on my hood.

[Jim Richards]

Ha!

[Grady Clay]

I agree that DE is harder on a 911 than sitting in the garage. The good part of that is that you keep all the systems in perfect condition. Tracking any car brings to the front any weak areas. That can be from simple lack of attention or setting in the garage. To carry the “couch potato” analogy farther, that lazy slob won’t perform well when needed.

Another thing DE will do for you is teach you what your 911 won’t do. It won’t stop in a dime, particularly if there is some sand on the road or you lock up the brakes. It won’t corner like it was on rails, particularly if you are too abrupt or suddenly lift in the wrong attitude. You can loose control if you don’t know what to do or expect something from your 911 that it can’t deliver. All this translates to your being a safer driver; street or track, 911 or something else.

DE’s also let you learn and have fun while keeping your adrenalin and testosterone under control. Too many approach DE, or actual racing, before they are technically and emotionally ready.

Looks like you are on the right track.

E-mail me your e-mail address and I will send you a draft of my White Paper “How to go to Events.” It is a 100K+ Word.doc, too large for Pelican.

Best,
Grady
gradyclay@hotmail.com

[kstylianos]

Some food for thought.

Last year I met an instructor who had an 81 SC, bought it new. He and I got to talking and I could not believe it when he mentioned the car had close to 200K on the original engine and tranny. It’s been his DD and DE/Track car since new. His secret for longevity was 'keep the oil temps down' and stay on top of maintenance.

These cars were made to be driven hard. Bet your compression and leakdown #'s get better after a season of DE.