917's collide at the 'Ring

[Wil Ferch]

They were running the GP course....

Here's more background. As we ( ahem ) all know...Porsche never really intended for the 917 to be the ticket at the 'Ring....I'm speaking of "in the heyday". That chore was left to the nimble 908/03.

Well....at this Vintage race, these two 917's qualified and started something like 2nd and 3rd. You guessed it...it was a small, 4 cylinder, Lola T212 out in front. It didn't take two laps for the car to spread it's lead to over 30 seconds. After a few more laps...it was like.....where the heck are the pair of 917's ???

Well...they probably thought the same thing....and started to really go after the leader. The two 917's apparently touched in a switch-back corner....and NO ONE was letting off. So...the #3 car was rammed first on the RF and then again on the LF as the two 917's barrelled forward with no let up...in pursuit of the pesky 2 liter car.

Yeah...I think it was partially testosterone.

Stijn.....I think we're philosophically at opposite ends here. I say that although you "own" the car....this is like owning a home on the National Register in the USA. You know....if you owned the White House ( say)....you wouldn't put a fiberglass wall and roof up over the side entry door. Or be able to "burn it down", simply because it was "yours".

The owner of a historically significant vintage car...sad to say... will someday die. The historically-significant car should be available for future generations to see / hear / smell. Competitiveness has it's place. Have these guys buy current-production race cars to "drive the snot out of them".

I also agree the Brits are nuts to drive the historic cars into destruction and oblivion...as wittnessed by the recent Goodwood races. Oh my..... !

- Wil

[SLO-BOB]

Well said Wil.

A 917 isn't the typical Porsche garage queen. It's a piece of history where a pampered 911 is just a pampered 911.

[Wil Ferch]

Bill V .....I also saw the back of Chuck Stoddard's 917 disentegrate through turn 11 at the Glen.....just tighened up the ole' stomach to see that.

Smitty....I'm very sorry about your wife. I don't want to make this any more public than you want it to be....but I hope all will be well.

- Wil

[svandamme]

well, in the not so far future, y'all will get exactly that
all the original 917's will be in some museum called " the oil/car museum " and they won't be driven anymore

and most likely , somebody will be racing electric or otherwise powerd replica 917's...and everybody will be saying ... it was so much better back when those things were real , and were really giving it all

[Wil Ferch]

Stijn... I love 'ya like a brother.....but I don't know what point you're making in your last post...

That we better drive the snot out of them before all the oil is gone ??

OK....so we drive these cars that way....and the oil will STILL be gone someday. Except...the 917 in the museum will be a replica, being banged up and rebuilt so many times.....

...and then we'll have no racing and no real racing cars to preserve to look at. Might as well just have pictures.

As I said.... no hard feelings....I simply think we're polar opposites on this philosophical question, Stijn.

- Wil

[svandamme]

i get that a lot , with the points i make... lol

[kodabear]

Originally posted by Wil Ferch
Last weekend's event at the 'Ring was a Historic race.

I spoke to the guys in the pits...especially the two teams that ran 917's. One car was entered by a Belgian team. It was, the #3 Martini car driven by Elford for the '71 Sebring Victory ( chassis 917-020)....and the other, French team was running a Gulf-Porsche 917, #19 ( chassis 917-026).

Both guys collided ( with each other ! ...... not just once... but twice, for good measure ! ).....which DNF'd the Sebring car and hindered progress on the Gulf car. Mostly body damage on #3, but #19 suffered badly...fiberglass and aluminum damage....

Sad day....this is supposed to be gentlemanly racing so we can see historically significant cars on the track instead of in a museum. Instead these guys race hard like they're newer race cars. I have some personal negative feelings about the "stewardship" shown by such guys while these cars are in their possession.

- Wil

PS--- "K9 handler" or Smitty...were you there wearing a Goodwood Festival-of-Speed shirt? I was too timid to ask....

That's the way they race over there. They driven'em like they were meant to me driven. And frankly if the guy can afford to fork over that kind of money for a 917, they can afford to fix them too.

[efhughes3]

I don't know...this is a tough call. Like the pic of the pileup at the vintage race over here, if you take them out, the possibility of something bad is a real possibility. Heck, one could've caught fire amd burned to a crisp in without a wreck. If you buy a house on the National Register, you go into it knowing you've got to toe the line, these guys aren't fettered as such.

Would people watch a censored version of Deep Throat? Maybe not the best analogy, but IMO, people want to see these cars put through their paces if they go onto a track. Originality is great, but my guess is these cars will be repaired, and made ready to go another day. They will be no less spectacular to watch.

The recent Excellence has an article on the "rebuild" of 550-001. There ain't a whole lot of the original left, and a lot had to be fabbed. It will still be worth a fortune, and still gives enjoyment to spectators, although my guess is that car will be a museum/show piece.

[DaveE]

I saw a guy lose it in a Ford GT Mk IV several years ago at the Jefferson vintage race at Summit Point. Saw it going down the front straight (I was sitting at T10) and off he went to the left, into the brush, the trees, vegitation flying everywhere. He was OK and drove another of his collection the rest of the weekend, but I've just never forgotten that sight. I love seeing that old stuff at the track though even with the risk involved.

[lateapex911]

I have to say, I would KILL to seethe Goodwood aces in person. Those guys ROCK!!! And keep in mind it's guys like Danny Sullivan, or Rahal, or even better, the guys who drove the cars originally. And seeing them drifting JUST LIKE THEY did 50 years ago, well that is PRICELESS!

I could go see some cool cars at Lime Rock today...it's an hour away, but the roof needs work before winter, and my future weekends are all filled with race dates, and since they just parade around anyway....

Another point:

The cars with the best history should be driven harder...as they are more valuable, it makes more sense if they are crashed, from a financial standpoint. Putting $40K of aluminum fab work and bodywork into a $2 million car makes more sense than in a car worth $40K, right?

[Plecostomus]

In my opinion, the guys that endanger these beautiful and classic pieces of history are f'ing idiots, regardless if they own them and are doing what they want with them. They really have an obligation to keep them from being damaged or destroyed! If they want to run them around a track, do so in a "safe" environment. F'ing bozos!

[lateapex911]

Money and driving talent don't always go hand in hand...witness the American debacle pictured above...

Now THOSE guys were idiots..., (well, some of them)

[Noah930]

Sebring77, where was your vintage fender-bender photographed? I remember seeing a couple of those cars (orange Mustang, and #60 Corvette) at PIR last summer at their historic races, I think. It's a shame to see something like that.

At the same time, it's no fun to watch a race car go through a series of parade laps, either. If there's a 917 out on the track with a gaggle of 911's, 356's, and other "lesser cars", I wanna see that 917 suck the doors off of everyone else! I disagree with the notion that there's some implied level of stewardship or conservatory responsiblity of the current owners to promise that nothing untoward will ever happen to these cars--if ya bought it, ya bought it. But there's a way to race vintage cars without going at it > 10/10ths.

[Noah930]

Money and driving talent don't always go hand in hand

He he. I remember seeing some pics of (wrecked) Ferrari's at last year's Monterey Historics. I think both were taken at turn 6. One guy destroyed the entire front end of his F50, supposedely after having just gotten it back from the factory following a 6-figure rebuild from a previous crash. And another rich (Dutch?) dude tore off the entire front end of some late-model F1 car; his legs were hanging out from the cockpit from thigh-level down.

[lateapex911]

I think that was at Road America...and it is on the front straight, on the start. One of those dumb go-check up-go deals.

Pole sitters are to hold the pace car speed while the field forms behind them out of the last corner until the green....I read this was a late green, and some got anxious.

Reportedly there were some injuries, minor in the end, and some fistfights as well!

The last vintage race I went to was actually staged...the leaders allowed the "featured" Trans Am car (Poseys Cuda) to come from 8th or so on the grid to the point, then did some pass/repassing for the lead, until the featured car took it at the checker in a three wide finish. Exciting if it were real, but silly otherwise.

It is hard to argue with the Brits point, sadly.

[Duke]

Here's #2 unscrewing the cork at Laguna Seca!

[ted]

I like to see them on the track.
I don't need to see them racing in wheel to wheel competition.

I'd rather see them in a DE/TT format.
I can get my W2W fix from watching current (safe with fire systems and no aluminum cages) race cars rubbing and crashing.

I like David Hobbs statement about quiting vintage racing.
At Road America in a vintage Can Am car braking hard while thinking about his March or Lola? rear suspension pivots that even when new would sometimes tear out...and why was he pushing this car in the same way now that it was 30 years old!

[silverc4s]

The saying I have heard goes something like: "It's a million dollar car, but you can't do a million dollars worth of damage to it."

Personally, I decided a long time ago that owning a high performance car and never using that 7/10ths to 10/10ths part of the envelope is to miss out on a huge part of the experience. If you break it once in a while, so be it.

[BReyes]

Wish I could have been there to be able to say it was unecessary (from reading the above exerpts, it seems somebody was out of the race line a couple of times). Better yet, I wish I could one day afford one, and be able to say IT WAS UNESSARY!. That's my future car.

And since I'm dreaming let me see if I can plan a trip to Europe and visit Goodwood and get a good deal on a vintage racer the owner has no use for anymore.

Seriously, save the 917s for, the next generation, for prosperity, yet race them for us, next weekend, next year!

Regards,

[buster73]

I was active in the classic car racing scene in Europe several years back (not as a driver but as a mechanic) and made my own observations.

The owner of a fast and expensive race car is in a big dilemma (although somehow a nice problem to have). In most cases the owner is not a professional driver. So he either drives the car himself, within his own limits and just for the fun of it (which will most probably not get him onto the podium) or he hires a professional driver to see his car race and hopefully win. A professional driver should be able to drive depending on what the owner tells him to do (8/10, 9/10, 10/10, win or bust...). But even professional drivers can make a mistake, especially if they are asked to take a car to the limit. And some are not all that professional and switch off the right side of their brain as soon as the race starts (mechanics love these guys).

Probably the worst situation is an owner/driver (or worse the driving son of the owner) over-estimating his or the cars capabilities. ("I have the faster/more expensive car, I must be able to pass this cheapo car in front of me"). Anyway for most of these owners money is not really an issue and of course they don't work on the cars themselves. If the car is damaged they sign a check and two weeks later the car is ready to race again.

I love to see old race cars on the track, but it certainly hurts to see them being damaged. Of course racing accidents can happen, but I agree that truly rare cars should be driven with respect and not at 10/10.