East Coast MFI House calls

[72doug2,2S]

How many MFI guys are interested in attending the first East Coast MFI house call Harrisonburg in September?

I've spoken to the owner of Mid Atantic Motor Werkes, Greg Shaffer, and he is willing to host our workshop.

See Link
http://www.midatlanticmotorwerkes.com/index.php

Greg only needs to know the date(s) and how many people we expect will be there. I told him I'll email him to keep him up to date. Greg knows we've been working on this for a while and that coordinating schedules may effect our final date.
greg@midatlanticmotorwerkes.com

Midatlantic Motorwerkes just had it's grand opening and the place is very clean and new. It will be a pleasure to work
on the car there.

Harrisonburg is 2hr from DC, 2hr from Richmond, 2 hr from Roanoke.

This is the new thread.

[Will911T]

September is tough but I'm interested in theory. currently residing in Atlanta but in process of moving 4 hrs closer to H'burg.

Will A.
'72 bone stock 911T 2.4MFI

[Jim Richards]

Track days and a possible trip out West are my challenges to making a September meeting. I'll look at my calendar and let you know more how that month is shaping up.

[72doug2,2S]

Terry Hastings and I have emailed each other and I believe it would look something like this.

MFI workshop
Objective: CMA 10 steps
Engine: 2,2 S
Date: TBA
Time: 10 AM - 6 PM Saturday
Place:Mid Atlantic Motor Werkes

After hours place: My House/garage 5minuites away.

If significant others need coaxing the Valley hosts
Antique shops all over Route 11 (10min)
Historical sites (Civil War, Woodrow Wilson birth place) (20min)
Luray Caverns (40min)
Skyline Drive (15min) Big Meadows (35min)
James Madison University, Eastern Mennonite University, & Bridgewater College

[larry47us]

Dayyym, you guys are just too far away. Anyone want to videotape it? I would LOVE to learn how to do the CMA!!!! Right now, all I have is the booklet. Need the tools, and the knowledge.

larry

[72doug2,2S]

I am a said novice as well and I suggested the same thing on the video. Terry has stated these are very complex systems and with some outside expert assitence, like Grady, something could be put together on video. That said, I do hope to start some taping at this event.

[David E. Clark]

This sounds great! Have you guys come up with a specific weekend yet? I work out of town on the 10th and the 17th. If it's one of the other two weekends I'd love to come. 50/50 shot, hope my luck is better than it is at poker

If you decide to video-tape I'd be happy to pay for a copy.

Anyone else from Greensboro want to ride up together?

[donk]

Add me to the list of folks that would pay for video. Obviously, geography will keep me from attending.

[72doug2,2S]

Terry, are you out there?

[EDIT] I just spoke with Terry, he is just back from a trip out west.

[72doug2,2S]

I'm open to dates and suggestions. 9-24-05? 10-1-05 (10-8-05 is my anniversiary and my wife will's gonna murder me if I suggest that)

What list of things do we want to cover?
For me basics
What are others thinking?

[72doug2,2S]

Here's pic's of our host



[Edit] I should mention, we'll have the shop all day on Saturday, but the mechanic will be off. We'll be our own instructors.

[thastings]

Hi Doug,
My computer and I are back together again. It just didn't seem right to play with it while sitting in Steamboat Springs Co.

I was tempted to try to contact Grady and drag him back with me, but the trout streams were so nice and I got to meet my new grandson at the same time. He is the strongest, smartest....etc. etc..............

Well I'm glad to see that there is a little interest in this get together. My wife has a knee operation on Sept 12, so the weekend on the 17th may be out for me. Depends on how well she is moving around.

Well for my 2 cents on the subject of the agenda.

This will be a learning experience for all. What I have learned about the MFI is from many months of trying, crying, cussin' and threating my car. If, it was in my garage instead of on the rack in my brother's garage, the car might have some .45 cal. holes in it now. So, as far as I know, there ain't no MFI expert coming to this, only a bunch of MFI owners trying to create a "combined knowledge expert".

So, don't hang back because you're shy, cause we're all beginners in this field. I hope one of those guys WE think of as EXPERTS (Grady, Cramer, etc...hint) jumps into the rink to help out here. It will save us a lot of wasted time and possibly save Doug's '72 from a fate worst then death, being turned into a smokin', poppin', hide your face, "PORSCH", as the city folk call them.

Doug, we thank you for offering your '72 as our first class project. I hope it is a 2nd car that you can do without come monday morning.

So, who has what CMA tools available for this adventure? My grandson took back his protractor because I got it dirty.

Who is good with a video camera and editing it? Cause it might take a LOT of editing.

Grady, etc. do you have any suggestions or info you can pass on to help us out with this first club meeting? Any type video tapes on MFI?

Finally, this is not intended to be a one time event. The whole purpose of the event is to create a "club" where we can get together a couple of times a year, at different members houses etc. to work on each others cars and to expand our combined knowledge on the MFI system. But if we don't start doing something, soon all the knowledge will be lost.

Doug, you have to look into the availability of hotel rooms and prices in you area. I don't think you're dumb enough to try and dump bunch of guys on your wife for a weekend and some of us are to far away to drive home Sat. night.

So, everybody start jumping in on the subject.

Terry Hastings

[72doug2,2S]

Terry, welcome back! Hope and pray your wife's surgery goes well, of course we will work around her recovery. Is late September even an option? Here's some info.. more to come

Local Pelican Contact
540-801-8265 Hm Doug Detwiler
540-564-9582 wk

Harrisonburg Hotels (15 on travelocity.com)

3 nice new hotels all on Evelyn Byrd Ave right next to each other
1) Jameson Inn (AAA) $69.00 (540) 442-1515
2) Sleep Inn $104.00 (540) 533-7100
3) Courtyard (AAA) $89.00 (540) 432-3031

Cheaper and older hotels run $39.00 and up (I'll check into B&B's too) more tomorrow.

This is a college town so dates we'll throw out
10-8-05 JMU parents weekend
10-29-05 JMU homecoming
10-15-05 is EMU parents weekend, but it's small at 1,000 compared to JMU 15,000

[72doug2,2S]

I don't know if there is an interest in B&B's, but here's the skinny

Joshua Wilton House $115 - 130 includes breakfast
Stonewall Jackson Inn $99 - 149 includes breakfast

Terry can you suggest a date given the schedules listed above?

[larry47us]

I hate to sound like the the friday morning cynic, but if no one among you is experienced at working with or successfully aligning the MFI, and we all know how doing the CMA is tough and exacting work, how do you feel that the collective knowledge will provide answers?

I don't want to throw cold water on a gathering, especially since I'm not going to be able to be there, but I would like to know how to do the CMA. I have had the "experts" and non-experts say "Did you do the CMA? That's what's needed to adjust the MFI pump." All fine and dandy, but I have gotten overwhelmed by specialty tools (that need to be custom fabricated) and a 60 page book on how to do this.

If no one among you has successfully done this, what do you think you'll get out of the day, except for a nice beer buzz, some Pcamaraderie, and the chance to screw up a buddies' 72?

larry

[72doug2,2S]

Larry, good point. I think Terry would be able to answer this question better than I, but I think there's a big difference in complete novice, one who's been there done that, and an expert.

This event is have been there done that.

[larry47us]

Doug:

I agree. Most of the advice I have gotten on my car - and it has been to a very large extent great advice - has been from "been there, done that" people. I would say that this is the predominant level of Pelicanheads.

So if you guys have successfully "been there, done that" I look forward to getting the tape so that I can "be there, doing that."



larry

[Grady Clay]

The first thing would be to propose an agenda and see who can accept responsibility for various parts. The general program might go:

1) A review of basics.
Think of the engine and much of the 911 as a system comprised of several sub-systems. Each must perform its function properly for the entire system to work as intended. For our purposes here those sub-systems are:
a) The internal engine. That includes compression (head gasket leaks), ring & valve sealing, cam timing, valve adjustment, and more.
b) The ignition system. That includes the CDI and power to it, ignition transformer (aka coil), distributor, points, rotor, cap, wires, plug connectors and spark plugs.
c) Fuel supply. That includes the fuel tank, outlet screen, fuel pump, hoses, fuel filter, return restriction fitting, and more.
d) Exhaust system. Leaks and aftermarket mufflers can give you incorrect symptoms and lead you to wrong conclusions.
e) Lots of other areas that you wouldn’t normally consider but can have a profound effect. They include crankcase breather, fuel tank evaporative emissions, condition if the engine oil, type and age of the fuel, and more.
f) Finally the Mechanical Fuel Injection system. That includes throttle bodies, linkage, pipes, nozzles, timing belt & pulleys, cold start enrichment, cold running thermostat & hot air source, air filter, and more. The last thing is the MFI pump and its adjustments,

The common mistake is to see a symptom and immediately adjust the MFI pump. That usually leads to having everything mal-adjusted while the real problem is left unattended. Even “experts” can make this mistake.

2) MFI theory – how the parts work.
a) MFI pump
b) Nozzles
c) Electric pump
d) Fuel filter console
e) Cold start
f) Cold enrichment – thermostat
g) Throttle bodies
h) How the complete system works

3) CMA2 – Grady’s extended version.
a) Air cleaner cartridge. Almost all is done with the air cleaner system in place as it will be used. OE exhaust available. Easy remove sump tank breather and fuel evaporative emissions hose.
b) Compression loss includes both cranking compression and cylinder leak test.
c) Ignition: Spark plugs, spark plug connectors, wires, cap, rotor and general proper condition of the ignition system. Check electrical connections and grounds. Check distributor bearing, springs weights condition. Run distributor on tester. Dwell angle, points condition, condition of cam and lubricant. Ignition timing, proper advance curve, and vacuum operation. When complete and timing is set at 6000 RPM, note the timing at idle (with & without vacuum retard if applicable) and static timing.
d) Fuel pressure and flow, new fuel filter and clean the screen in the bottom of the fuel tank.
e) Injection nozzles; inspect, test, clean, or replace.
f) Injection timing: If you need to adjust the MFI pump timing, use the opportunity to replace the Gilmer belt and both toothed pulleys. You can save the old ones as road spares. This is also an opportunity to replace the seals at the left cam and injection pump.
g) Camshaft timing and valve clearance. Use this opportunity to torque the cylinder head nuts and rocker arm shaft bolts.
h) Correlation and includes the condition of the throttle bodies. One of the important issues is that all the linkage moves off idle simultaneously. Check air flow at idle and just off idle for each cylinder.
i) Confirm the cold start solenoid doesn’t leak and turns on & off sharply.
Cold start thermo-time switch proper function. ’69-’71 cold start solenoid on MFI pump proper function.
j) Over-run fuel shut-off checked for function. RPM transducer and microswitch.
k) The cold running thermostat must be clean, getting hot air, and functioning properly. When hot, it must be completely shut off.
l) Exhaust emission test; at part load, at idle speed.
m) Road testing, dyno testing.

4) Diagnosis
a) Symptoms & causes
b) Geriatric MFI – old & worn out things
c) Recognizing previous improper work
d) Fine tuning over the long haul

Of course this can be as extensive or as abbreviated as you want.


I recommend you find the tools and borrow them for the weekend. An engine on the stand is worthwhile for measuring cam timing, torque heads and rocker shafts, adjusting valves, and setting MFI pump timing. You certainly will want a 911 with some things intentionally out of whack. It is useful to have some parts to play show n’ tell with. That might include a complete MFI system off engine, fuel filter console, sets of perfect & defective nozzles, CDI box & transformer, a fuel tank with a semi-plugged filter screen fitting, and more. There should be a large wiring diagram of MFI electrics. You will want a distributor machine and some Bosch distributors with various problems. You will need good exhaust gas analyzers – both for the dyno and on the road. Donate a cylinder of calibration gas to the shop.

I’ll start a list of tools & equipment:
Compression tester – screw in the head type
Cylinder leak tester
Graduated cylinder – plastic 1-2 liter
Long fuel hose from engine to fuel fill in LF fender, with adaptor
Funnel with filter to fit fuel filler.
Fuel pressure gauge & fittings – P233b
Strap wrench for oil & fuel filters, pump toothed pulley
Powered timing light
Dwell meter
Test light
Multi-meter
3/8” & ¼” torque wrench
Allan sockets for head nuts & rocker shafts
Valve adjust tool
Cam timing dial indicator & P207 holder
Thermometer
Correlation tools – P228b, P228c
Vernier caliper
Air flow meter – P235, P235a or Syncrometer
Nozzle tester
Exhaust gas analyzer & calibration gas
Distributor machine
MFI idle adjust
MFI main adjust
Wrench for lock nuts on air bypass
Long screwdriver for idle air
Wrenches for throttle linkage
Tools for heat exchanger, throttle bodies, nozzles, etc.
More
Regular Porsche mechanic tools
Assortment of magnets, mirrors, and grabber tools for retrieving everything that slides down under the MFI pump


Make sure you have all the new parts that might be necessary. That will include:
Sparkplugs, several sets – pre gapped and ends installed.
Valve cover gaskets
Oil & filter, sump gaskets
Fuel filter, air filter
Pump belt & toothed pulleys
Thermostat concentric hoses
Cap, rotor, wires, plug connectors.
Muffler & exhaust gaskets
Throttle body-to-head gaskets
More

You are going to want to pre-prepare the 911s with fresh fuel & clean screen. Do a through exterior cleaning of the engine, cylinder fins & heads, and the oil cooler. Have the hardware for the muffler and particularly the left heat exchanger new.

This is a lot of work even for a pro with helper in the allotted amount of time. You don’t want to waste a minute fixing stubborn or broken hardware.


A weekend schedule might go:
1) Friday afternoon social hour and dinner.
2) Friday evening review basics & theory.
3) Saturday morning early start on CMA2.
4) Saturday coffee & quick breakfast snacks, sandwiches for lunch, mid-afternoon snacks, pop, ice tea, etc. No booze until social time.
4) Saturday afternoon diagnosis and trouble shooting on dyno & road.
5) Saturday evening social hour and dinner.
6) Saturday evening review the day’s progress.
7) Sunday morning more trouble shooting on dyno & road.
8) Sunday noon finish.


A through Pelican & other forum search might be in order here.

I’ll work on expanding this and adding detail.

Best,
Grady

[larry47us]

Grady:

You've got me sold. Ever since I started reading your posts, I have been awed by your knowledge and experience. That being said, I volunteer my 73E as a subject for the class for such a weekend, with you doing the teaching and adjustments. It's not a short drive from Chicago to Denver (edit: or out east, if that is where you would want to do it), but it's worth it to me to spend the weekend with you, and have you tinker with my car.

If you're willing, I will pop for the parts for my car, and provide the gunea pig for adjustments.

You let me know where and when (there is a very short window that I'm NOT available - from Sept 23 - Oct 12. Denver is a favorite town of mine, so I won't mind the trip (edit: But I'll travel to where ever you would want to do the "seminar").

I'll bet we could get a group together to do it. Or if you wanted to come to Chicago, I could certainly provide housing for you for the training weekend . . . . . You tell me what works. (If you are interested.)

larry

[Grady Clay]

Larry,

You bring up a good point. We need to define the purpose of the “MFI Seminar.” It can be whatever we want but how it’s done depends on the ultimate goal. It can be a service clinic where 911s are diagnosed and the MFI tuning improved. I think it is best as an educational situation where every participant goes home armed with knowledge.

A year or two ago, I proposed to someone on this Forum that they get a group together and start a local MFI LLC. Its purpose would be to own all the tools and equipment and be a repository for the technical information. The gear could be rented (for $1) to a willing shop to be maintained. The LLC Members could get together and have weekend (or whenever) sessions tinkering with their MFI 911s. This would provide a continuing structure as members come and go. MFI Seminar participants would be a good starting point.

The test subjects for a MFI Seminar should be in already perfect (if that is possible) condition. The common problems can then be intentionally induced for demonstration and diagnosis. One of the difficulties of CMA is that you regularly have to stop the CMA process and repair something. An extreme example would be to rebuild the engine from lack of good compression. The only (reasonable) way to replace the pump drive belt, toothed pulleys and left cam oil seal is with the heat exchanger removed. You don’t want to be fighting broken exhaust studs during a seminar. A proper seminar is well scripted with no “dead time.”

Important features of a seminar are the props. One of the primary functions is to be able to see and handle parts of the MFI system in situ, off engine and in various states of wear, malfunction and disrepair. After almost 40 years many have incorrect parts or adjustments. It is difficult to spot something incorrect when you have never seen it in correct form.

For everyone’s emotional satisfaction the Seminar should have a successful conclusion with proper running MFI 911s. There shouldn’t be any projects left hanging.


Doug, it might be productive to do this as a Regional or Zone PCA event. This would get even wider exposure and support. It also has the benefit of insurance in case someone gets their necktie caught in the fan. I’ll run this by the Rocky Mountain Region.

Best,
Grady