964 c4 / 993 c4 - your opinions please!

m325ix · 12-20-2005, 08:39 AM

what are the pro/cons for each model?
I understand that 993 is newer and better in a lot of aspects, but there is also a price difference.
Is 4wd system in 964 reliable and can the car be lowered?
I'd ike to hear from the owners of both models.
Thanks

Porsche virgin · 12-20-2005, 08:48 AM

I'm sure you'll be getting more useful reply soon, from far more knowledgeable people, but here is some quick info:

The 964 4wd system is supposed to be far more sophisticated than the one in the 993 and much better for bad weather driving (crummy winter here in the NE so far, huh?).

The 993 4wd system is supposed to be better for performance driving.

Enginewise, the early 964s had come problems, which are well-documented on this site.

How do you like your 325ix? I've been thinking about getting one (or a Subaru) myself for the winter. I'm sick of snow and it isn't even Xmas!

Kurt B · 12-20-2005, 08:55 AM

964s have a bad reputation that seems at least somewhat misplaced.
I mean, yeah, it's much more complicated and prone to problems than the 89 and older models, but when compared w/ a 993, it's probably a wash.
However, even changing the fan belts is like this huge pain in the @ss and has to be done right...nothing is 'easy'...so be prepared.
If you can afford the 993, it makes sense to get one just based on the appearance alone.

m325ix · 12-20-2005, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Porsche virgin

How do you like your 325ix? I've been thinking about getting one (or a Subaru) myself for the winter. I'm sick of snow and it isn't even Xmas!

I had 4 of them (iXs), fun little cars, but a little slow and a little small. If you can find one in good condition, nicely maintained, it should provide worry free driving for about 5-6k. I got Benz e320 4Matic now for everyday drving, much more comfortable, more power, better all around, just a different league all together, although price reflect that

now back on topic, I haven't heard of 964 awd system being superior in bad weather (snow, rain, etc..) ?

RallyJon · 12-20-2005, 10:04 AM

I would be concerned with a complex, proprietary computer controlled system in an aging car. 964s and early 993s need a several $000 (if you can find one) Bosch tool to even do certain basic diagnostics. Who will work on your 964 AWD system when it goes bad? As a dead end technology within Porsche, will parts even be available, and how much will they cost?

Porsche virgin · 12-20-2005, 10:13 AM

Try this thread:

Why or why not a C4?

RallyJon · 12-20-2005, 10:16 AM

It's interesting that Porsche used a Subaru-style viscous coupling in the 993s. The technology has improved quite a bit since the mid-90s, and I wonder if a quicker reacting, higher lockup VC can be retrofitted to a 993?

Wrecked944 · 12-20-2005, 10:22 AM

My 964C4 cuts through snow like butta. I don't even bother to shovel mydriveway anymore. It's that good.

However, when I drive it at AutoX, it understeers like a pig. Very frustrating. If I did not live in the snow belt, I'd definitely get a C2.

And the comments about complexity are spot on. Last weekend I tried to replace my (12) ignition wires. Should be a simple job but it took me two days of frustration and I only got the top six wires replaced. I could not even FIND the bottom six wires. Seems I need to remove the catalytic converter and the secondary muffler to access them. It is a giant PITA just to do a tune up.

m325ix · 12-20-2005, 10:30 AM

thanks for the replies, keep them coming!

I don't care about tracking c4, I got RSR and highly modified M3 in addition to the race bike, so track will not be something that I would be concern with if I get awd 964 or 993

badcar · badcar's Garage

Pics of the new ride

After 6 months of ownership...this is what I have learned.
1. Yes the car is quick. Great power and torque.
2. The cross over between old and new is one of best aspects of this car.
3. The AWD rocks. 8 inches of snow...no issue on summer tires.
4. Make sure the drive trains are tuned and serviced on any car you are looking at.
5. Oil leaks...this is an overblown issue.
6. My car was lowered...too low, I had to raise it about 1/2 inch to get better handling.
7. It is a Porsche, it is expensive to maintain if you are not a DYI'er...which I am slowly becoming.
8. I have not tracked the car yet....so I am not sure about the understeer...as a novice driver, I will most likely like the effects of all wheel drive on a track...
8. My car is not a garage queen.. it is my daily driver as my Subie is loaned to a friend right now...and I have no worries if the weather goes bad...and it can here in Colorado.

Speedster94 · 12-20-2005, 12:56 PM

The 964 has almost a 1/1 system to the 959 , computer controlled Hydraulic actuators are regulating the AWD . It is a very good system as long as it is new , with aging it has problems because there are many moving Parts involved .
The 993 has a very simple ,plain meechanical System similar to Audis Quattro , and it weighs only a 3. of the 964 System .
Te 993 over all is much easier to maintain ( i.e. hydr. Valve Lifters )
Harald

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

The 964 system is heavy, complicated and more geared to snow use than performance use.

The 993 is lighter, less complicated and more performance oriented.

both impart extra understeer to the car, 964 more than 993.

For a performance oriented buyer I would rank them 993RS>964RS>993tt>964t>993C2>964C2>993C4>993C4S>964C4

RallyJon · 12-20-2005, 01:23 PM

I wonder why with Porsches "AWD adds understeer" when it's so easy to engineer AWD to enhance turn-in and front end bite. I also wonder why, with all the modifications that people do to their cars, no one has thought to tune the AWD system. Or maybe they have.

Seems to me it's like saying "the big front swaybar adds understeer" and never thinking that maybe you shouldn't use that swaybar.

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

Audi AWD understeers like crazy too. It can be tuned out but you do have to work at it.

Factory cars for the masses are always designed w/ understeer, much easier to defend in court than the opposite.

Gotta luv our llegal system

If you look at the supension tuning spread over the last 50 years of 911/964993/996/997 production there has been a continuous effort to get more understeer.

Porsche lost at least 1 suit relative to this issue.

m325ix · 12-20-2005, 04:02 PM

look at this pic ===>

I never knew 964 c4 came in wide body as a rare option, wow

kevgentile · 04:31 PM

the 97/98 c4 is obviously superior do to advancement in technology. all the bugs were worked out. mechanically there was little to go wrong. most of the problems with the earlier unit were electrical. have seen a lot of the front differentials in the earlier units leak. two words, audi s4.

RallyJon · 12-21-2005, 05:49 AM

I guess that makes sense. On an Audi and a Subaru, both with ~60% of the weight over the front wheels, you can take some pretty extreme steps without any nasty consequences on the exit.

I'm thinking specifically of the front differential. My old Subaru had a limited slip center and rear diff, with an open front--similar to a 993 (with a few important differences). Thinking specifically about the exit of a corner at the edge of traction, it would behave much like a rear-drive car. My STI, which has a fairly aggressive front LSD in addition to more aggressive center and rear LSDs, is entirely different. In a similar situation, the front of the car literally pulls through the turn with the back end allowed to lose traction just enough to rotate. It's a tremendous feeling.

So I was thinking about how the front of my 911 tends to wash out under power unless I "set" in into the corner first. Given the rear weight bias and great traction, it can overpower the front grip. What if a C4 could use AWD like the STI does, applying power through both front wheels when needed to pull the front into and through the corner?

I take it from what I've read that the 964 C4, which has the hardware to do this, is tuned not to? Given the open front, there's no way a 993 could do this.

Scooter · 12-21-2005, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by m325ix
look at this pic ===>

I never knew 964 c4 came in wide body as a rare option, wow

Why does this not look like a wide body? Look at the front fenders. Not questioning your research, the pic just does not look right.

Todd Simpson · 12-21-2005, 07:37 AM

There is indeed a 964 C4 widebody and that car looks like one.

They're supposed to be pretty rare (less than 150?) and made near the end of 964 production.

Speedster94 · 12-21-2005, 12:47 PM

there was at least 911 anniversary models in 1993 made , than in 1994 they made about another 1500 or so ,
The slowest 964 you can buy , turbo wide AND 4 WD , we converted 2 of them back to 2 wd so they can reach normal Top speeds .
It does look nice so .
harald