Why would anyone want anything newer than a 993?

[RallyJon]

Porsche's history is to improve on each model

Again, that's very one dimensional. This forum is full of people who treasure the handbuilt character of 911s. Improved for them? Who value the air-cooled temperment and sound. Improved for them? Who value light weight and direct, unassisted steering. Improved for them? Who value the pedigree of hand assembled dry sump engines. Hello? Who like to work on their cars. Hello? Hello?

Every new model 911 is guaranteed to 1) be faster around a track, 2) be easier to drive fast if you don't know how to drive fast, 3) have more insulation, electronics, and comfort, 4) have more features to appeal to the bling-oriented mid-level salesman personality, 5) have ever more enormous wheels and tires, 6) be cheaper to manufacture, with more disposable parts.

I mean, really, does anyone ever say: "I was going to buy this 73 RS for $90k, but no, I'll get the 997 because newer 911s are better. Oh, and look, I can afford the full burlwood option with the money I'll save!"

[juicersr]

My daily driver is a car Porsche should and could have produced 3 years ago for less than 30k instead of focusing on 'Porsche accessory' crap (give me a fu$$$ing break!!!! (can't believe Wayne photo'd all that stuff from the LA display). That and a VW V6 SUV(! its a Taureg for god sake! who are they fooling?)... the 350z. Its fast as hell, handles great, has a hatchback for usable room for my surfboard or snowboard when i go to the airport, or backpacks when my girl and i go hiking or traveling and i've put close to 100,000 on it with just oil changes. Nothing put's a smile on my face like jumping into the SC, listing to that oh so beautiful noise and playing Hans Hermann like i did on the way to work this morning, but a hot, affordable and reliable (read no 996/ Boxster/ ?Cayman RMS issues) would be great. just my 2c's

[pieterk]

Some interesting points here, and it's got me wondering:

At, say, a price point of ~$28k, you can get a superb example of a built, fairly uncompromised track-ready early 911, or a lightly modified 993, or a stock(ish) 996.

I'm curious to hear what some of you would choose at that price point, without regard to ideas of "soul" or appearance, or the way a 911 "should" be. I'm not necessarily interested in the absolute fastest car, but the one which would offer the highest quotient of admittedly subjectve ideas like driving experience, feedback, overall performance, potential competitiveness within POC/PCA classes, and a learning curve that rewards skill and concentration. In short, fun!

RallyJon's point feels spot on: "2) be easier to drive fast if you don't know how to drive fast,"

Put another way, if you really know how to drive fast, is the built, early 911 really slower than a 993 or a 996? I.e., there are quite a number of built early 911 drivers who can turn low 1:30s and even high 1:20s at Willow Springs, times that are completely competitive with late model Z06s, Vipers, Evos, STIs, and a lot of 993s and 996s.

Did I just answer my own question?

[RallyJon]

Nobody really buys a new (non-GT#) street Porsche because they think it'll be the fastest car around a racetrack, do they? They do want to know that it can get around the Nordshleife in <8 minutes though for that warm I'm-not-a-sucker feeling it gives them.

The modded vs stock argument is an old one. People who buy new cars don't think that way or they wouldn't buy new cars. When you buy a new 997, you get great performance, great style, a warranty, and a dealer who'll kiss your ass and make you feel like a player when you drop by. But most important, you'll have The New One. People will stare. They'll know you have lots of money. If you're older, portly and greying, it takes 10 years off. You buy a whole package, and you can't get that by setting up your 15 year old 911 so it will be faster around a track.

[911teo]

Originally posted by pieterk

Put another way, if you really know how to drive fast, is the built, early 911 really slower than a 993 or a 996?

No, an early track prepped 911 can be much faster than a stock 993, 996 or 997... But you are not comparing apples to oranges.
By the same token a 997 Cup car will walk away from anything built before...

To explain myself a little better... give Walter Rorhl a BB2, a 74 RSR, a 993 RSR, a 996 GT3 Cup and a 997 Cup. I bet his fastest lap will be in the 997.

But I think your original question hits it on the nail... With $30k you could buy an early 911 with a 3.6 Vram, a very nice 993 and a stock 996. Which one would u get?

[Jandrews]

Some great points here.

I guess I read the original question from a slightly different perspective. Since I already HAVE an early 911, would I buy ANOTHER early 911 or a 993 or a 996? I would have to say that for me, the 993 is the best Porsche ever, because it represents the best "balance" or "compromise" between the old and the new. But, since I already own one of the (arguably) "most raw" (2.7RS MFI) examples ever built, I don't see myself buying another early 911, just for the "experience". This is why I agree with RallyJon that, in my case, you really have to compare these 996's and 993's to my "other car", and for me, it's a pretty appealing consideration at that point!


JA

[hkspwrsche]

pieterk
"I'm curious to hear what some of you would choose at that price point, without regard to ideas of "soul" or appearance, or the way a 911 "should" be. I'm not necessarily interested in the absolute fastest car, but the one which would offer the highest quotient of admittedly subjectve ideas like driving experience, feedback, overall performance, potential competitiveness within POC/PCA classes, and a learning curve that rewards skill and concentration. In short, fun!"

If you compare with out considering soul then compare an 06 S2000 specs to a 96 993 specs. Pretty darn close... Would I trade a 993 for an S2000.. probably not but, I would take the "S" over the boxter or z4....
We're also talkin new car warranty but, depreciation that the 993 wont have as much of..... who knows... drive what ya like..

[Doug&Julie]

Originally posted by Jandrews
...Since I already HAVE an early 911, would I buy ANOTHER early 911 or a 993 or a 996?...

That would be my dilema as well. Since I have the early car, for me it's a no-brainer....the 996. The modern Porsches, for all that they "lack in personality", are truly excellent cars on the day to day basis. And those of us who don't live in sunny So Cal have to live with cold and rain and snow and all that mother nature can throw at us. And for that I want maximum ability...maximum safety...maximum new.

Of course, for me, the tougher question would be 996 or slightly used Boxster S?!?!?

[pieterk]

Originally posted by hkspwrsche
If you compare with out considering soul then compare an 06 S2000 specs to a 96 993 specs. Pretty darn close... Would I trade a 993 for an S2000.. probably not but, I would take the "S" over the boxter or z4....

Funny you mention it, because before I decided to re-enter the Porsche fold, I had vaguely considered an S2000 as the track toy. Fairly light, good top end, and a wonderful engine. I've run with them on the track and in the hands of a good driver, they are fast and seem to be a lot of fun. Tune it, and I imagine it's going to be really fast.

Still, couldn't make that leap. Porsche it is!

[pieterk]

Originally posted by 911teo
No, an early track prepped 911 can be much faster than a stock 993, 996 or 997... But you are not comparing apples to oranges.

I deleted the part in my first post about how the comparisons are not just about better/worse, but really, different. Different suspensions, different cooling, different dimensions; they strike me as pretty different cars. Which is why I'm not sure the comparison is that good or easy. Still, I'm trying to make rational as well as emotional decisions, and it's the differences between cars that make the cars.

Originally posted by 911teo
To explain myself a little better... give Walter Rorhl a BB2, a 74 RSR, a 993 RSR, a 996 GT3 Cup and a 997 Cup. I bet his fastest lap will be in the 997.

Absolutely.

To be clear: my dream car is a GT3. If I ever make really stupid money, I will buy a 997 GT3 (or 998, or 999 or whatever!) and be done with the dithering! But as of now, I can't afford that. I can afford a built early 911, a nice 993, or a stock 996.

Originally posted by 911teo
But I think your original question hits it on the nail... With $30k you could buy an early 911 with a 3.6 Vram, a very nice 993 and a stock 996. Which one would u get?

My original question suffered from confirmation bias. I'm quite settled on the built early 911! Although seeing this thread this morning was a healthy reminder that my budget allows a broader choice than I realized, and I want to make the best choice possible.

[svandamme]

i'de never buy a new porsche out of my own money , now if i got a job that required traveling, and the boss was dumb enough to offer me a 997 company car, well , i wouldn't say no that's for sure

but if i had the amount of money in my pocket , that allows me to buy a spanking brand new 997 , i wouldn't buy it

i'de buy a 993, get my targa fully done , and i'de have enough spare change to buy an early T shell, and make a narrow body racer out of it.

2 Porsches + having the current one fully done up

my only worry would be where to park them all

[jwmarc]

I started ass-backwards with Porsche... I bought a 99 boxster-TIP, and got leveled by my buddies for buying a "girlie" Porsche. But you know what the car was fun, handled well and was problem free... except for the RMS at 600 miles. I began to get the bug for the faster more "exclusive" 911 aka 996 and looked and test drove all of them..C2 C4, Turbo... I then tried the older 993s whenever they came on the lot at the dealer and they felt alot more aggressive than the 996.. particularly the 993 turbos.

I saw an '87 930 turbo, drove it, and decided that if I was going with an older P-car that if the price was right this was the one. The car is so raw and different than all the others I test drove.

I still have the Boxster ( damn I havent sold it yet...but then again I am in no hurry). To go out for a spin in the 986 and feel how tight and well behaved it is and how I can throw it around... it is a very fun car.. a little under powered but fun no less.. ..

Now when I get into the 930... I get a little tight and much more focused..I avoid throwing it around because honestly all the stories of tail spin outs has me spooked...but I am getting the rush that never came with any of the other cars I drove. ( I guess its the added fear factor)... As I get on the throttle and boost is kicking in ....I marvel at how fast the cars in my rear view mirror just seem to disappear.....

[diverdan]

All valid arguements. I guess that i like to roll the dice. No dealer is going to give me one heck of a deal on any new car. However, buying an old car that maybe needs something lets me roll the dice and I get to be an explorer discovering all the the faults of the old car and then enjoy solving the problems that I have discovered. Okay, the new 997 are great cars but I can't afford to get in the game, then when service time comes the dealer is going to get you for "little" things and expensive service that cost more than "upfixin" myself. The new technology just takes too much expensive equipment that I could never afford either. (That expensive equipment the dealer has to have for the new cars is why the mechanics share of the labor on the bill has gone down from 50% to about 35%.) Besides, I like it raw and drive the Duc just about as often as I do the P cars. Why do early 911 S cars have the most loyal following? Well, after the 356 group. They can all be driven everyday and with proper even hobbyist maintenance be extremely reliable. Change the fan belts, maybe a spare fuel pump relay. Less hoses and electronics. It's only our laziness that may cause our old steeds to be less reliable.

IMHO Diverdan

911 1978targa, 1979,1980coupes,1988cab
930 1980, 1985,
965 1992,1993 3.6
951, 1986x2
928 1980,1981 manuals 1983,1988 automatics.

Most are projects but I put about 30,000 miles a year on my P cars.

Other interesting cars in stable are an Alfa Zagato Roadster and a Maserati Khamsim (Ahh weber carbs), all manual transmissions.

If I was interested in selling, the automatics would go first! The 965s and 930s last.

Guess why I moved out of Sunny Cal?