resilient to allow off site PPI
 

I came across an 87 3.2 C I am very interested in this weekend. However, the manager of the lot it is on said he would not let my mechanic come get the car for a PPI until a sale price is agreed on and a down payment has been paid. I don't understand their resilience to my request. Are they hiding something? However I hardly think they are knowledgeable enough about Porsche to hide anything. No joke they did the truck pop when I asked to see the engine.... I know I should walk away from the car w/o a PPI but walking away from this car is going to be very hard to do. Any tips on how to make them less resilient to comply with my off sight PPI? And, should I walk away w/o it? I am going to talk to my mechanic today to see how much of a inspection he is able to do at their location. Thanks for the input. Also, I can't remember if the 3.2 still had the chain tensioner issue or not? I know it had the valve guide issue and that has been repaired in this car already.

Re: resilient to allow off site PPI
 

Then, you know what to do. Tell the dealer that too.

Or sign the contract subject to . . . And postdate your deposit for 1 day after the PPI.

Ian

Ask them why they will not let you do it. Try to think up a good reason. I really can't unless he thinks you are going to steal it or might wreck it during the ppi. Offer to let one of his employees (or himself) come along for the ppi if he is that concerned about it.

One hurdle is that it is in a real small town in the middle of nowhere and my mechanic's shop is about 30 miles away.....

If your mechanic comes to them, is there a place for him to use the hoist? Is there a garage somewhere close that you might be able to make a deal with and let your guy inspect the car at someone else's garage?

(ps, Ian, post-date checks doesn't work state side. I'm an ex-canuck here and have found out that post-dated checks will get cashed by the bank right away.)

The first thought is that there must be something to hide. I can not imagine how, when the business is to actually sell cars, that a dealer would hesitate to allow a Buyer to make a knowledgeable, well investigated purchase. If you had it checked and found a problem or two that gives you leverage and they apparently do not want that.
I have bought cars before without a PPI, but the seller had already agreed to let me take the car for one, and I could tell the condition. I would never buy one under the conditions you mention.
Good luck -

Damn it, thanks Tom. I may do this. Show up with my mechanic, get them to let just the two of us go for a test drive (not that their fat boy salesman could fit in the car anyway) then who is to say how long we should be out and who is to say we cant stop by the garage. Here is basically what occurred. I spotted the car by chance about 8 hours after it came to their lot as a trade in on a 996. I dove up and started grilling hem about the car (I call it asking informative questions about a major purchase they saw it more as me being annoying but I feel this is only b/c they knew nothing about the car and then they may have gotten offended. So I reviewed the few service records they had and asked if I could take it for a PPI. They said not until we talk price, an offer is made and signed off on by you, and a down is paid. I then got frustrated and left. End of story. Problem is this is a really solid from first glance.

Negotiate the purchase price and refundable deposit as being contingent upon acceptable PPI results. Put in writing that if the PPI turns up repairs required for more than $XXX that the purchase agreement is void. Put the deposit on a credit card and keep a copy of the written and signed agreement. If the car doesn't work out, get them to refund the deposit to the c.c. If they don't, dispute the charge and use the signed agreement and results of the PPI (which you pay for) as your proof.

I don't see the big problem as long as your deposit is fully refundable FOR ANY REASON and THAT is in writing. I understand their reluctance to just let the car be taken away to parts unknown (to them) without any paperwork to fall back on, and if you really are a serious buyer you should have no problem negotiating a price and putting up a small deposit based on the car having no stories. You should already have run a CarFax at the very least. The PPI should be used as a basis for re-negotiating (if issues are found) or a reason to walk away.


And not meaning to be a spelling net-cop or a wise-ass but the word is "resistant".... you coming back to them after they treated you with disrespect makes you "resilient".. ;)

KWM,
It took me a while to understand what you were saying. I think the word you meant to use is "resistant". "Resilient" means he was showing some flexibility to your suggestions. (sorry, I'll step out of @sshole mode, now)
I would say offer a deposit, and sign an agreement to purchase, pending a successful PPI. Another tack might be to see if you can get the name from the documents of the 'guy who traded it in' (although I would doubt there was such a person, as this would make this car the second Porsche on their lot, and one would think they knew how to open the engine compartment by now), and see if you can get any information from him.
If they won't agree to a return policy, I don't think you want to be doing business with these folks. Good luck.
Les
Edit: Gary types faster than I do! ;)

Any dealer that lets someone taks a car out of town for a day, with no contract or deposit, is an idiot and won't be in business very long. Their position is not at all unreasonable. Would you let a perfect stranger take one of your cars for a day, with nothing more than a promise to return it? I hope not. Both sides have to be protected.

Negotiate the price for the car, wrote up a contract for sale contingent upon the car passing the PPI and write them a deposit check. Make sure that they agree that the deposit will be refunded, if the car fails the test, and put that in writing on the contract. Make sure there is an agreement between the parties ahead of the PPI as to whether the price will be renegotiated based on results from the PPI. Just think through the process and make sure to document whatever is important to you. If they won't come to terms with you, walk away.

Good luck,
JR

I menat it in this way...
Main Entry: re•sil•ient
Pronunciation: -y&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin resilient-, resiliens, present participle of resilire to jump back, recoil, from to leap -- more
to recoil from to move away from

What about the fact that my car with keys is left at their lot isn't that a form a collateral. I drove there in a 06 Jetta VR6 with 5k on it and easily worth twice the price of the 87 Carerra. I just didn't like their RESILIENCE when I asked to get the PPI. At first they didnt even know my shop was 30 miles away.

My my, 8 posts and already we are tossing shots into the crowd...

kwm,

Leaving your car with them does doodly-squat to protect them legally in the event that you run off with their car. They have no right to own it and, for all they know, it may not even be your car. Don't sweat it. Car deals are done every day. If you don't like the sales person you dealt with, talk to another one.

JR

KWM,

From "The Princess Bride": "You keep using that word. I do not think that word means what you think it means." ;)

About using the Jetta as collateral: I don't think you even want to go there, either formally or informally. If you get into a dispute with them over the condition of the car, you wouldn't want them to get their hands on something "worth twice the price".
Either they will acquiesce to your suggestion of terms for a PPI, you will take a gamble on the car on their terms or you will walk away. It is up to you. As before: Good luck.
Les

You're among friends here kwm. These cars have a powerful pull only matched by women. Sometime we need our buds to keep us from being lured onto the rocks by the siren call of a "problem" 911.

I think your gut is telling you right but see if you can structure a deal such that you [and the dealer, lets be fair] is protected. A deposit would be fair but don't agree to a price. The PPI will almost always turn up stuff which you then use to negotiate the price. For example, needs tires, X is leaking, etc.
If you can't get a PPI without agreeing to a price, trust your instincts and walk away.

Perhaps the word you were thinking of is "recitence"?
As in "I don't understand their recitence to my request."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resilience

-Chris

OK thanks guys I do appreciate the comments. I just spoke to my mechanic about this topic and I think we have forged a game plan. If anything interesting happens I will hopefully post it to the thread. Have a good one

PS. I wasn't thrying to throw any shots in the crowd.

Huh? I don't mean to be a total jerk, but that is not what resilient means. That is its derivation. (In the same way that the word microscope means a scientific instrument not "to see small"). According to Webster, resilient means a : capable of withstanding shock without permanent deformation or rupture b : tending to recover from or adjust easily to misfortune or change. synonym see ELASTIC.

More to the point: I think the seller is reasonable in asking that certain details be agreed upon before he lets you take a car for a PPI. PPIs are fairly invasive and I would not let anyone perform any work on a car I was selling without being reasonably sure that he was very serious about purchasing it.


Did you bring the title along with you?

Boy O Boy isnt this true. When they fired up that 3.2 I almost crapped myself. To sit in it and stand near it I drove away thing this isn’t merely a mode of transport from A to B and I wasn't even sure the word "car" was really applicable either.

I'm not a car dealer, but I would also be strongly resistant to allowing a buyer to peform a PPI on my car without a deal in hand. That's not at all unreasonable.

In my case, the buyer and I agreed upon a price subject to a PPI and my producing a Smog certificate. I took a deposit and wrote up a deposit contract. Standard procedure. After the PPI, since there were no significant issues, I went and got a smog cert and we consumated the deal.

While I have worked with owners that did not need a full contract for a PPI, it was ovbious that someone about to spend $300 to validate the mechanical condition of a car was a good risk. But working with a private party is different than working with a business. So as the others have reasonably suggested, write up a deal contingent on a PPI.

Carrera's have updated tensioners, they are in fact called "Carrera Tensioners". Aside from the normal wear and records issues, the biggest weakness of this year car is premature valve guide wear. And aside from taking off the valve covers and wiggling the valves, you'll need to know oil consumption. That's difficult to know from a dealer purchase. Leakdown/compression are very common (and probably not able to do at a dealer lot) but tell you more about general engine health and wear, not valve guide wear.

Good Luck!

Don

Let us know what happens Kvm.

Best of luck!

LOL.....good one. Even though you were joking I do keep telling myself that too socal b/c this one may end up getting away from me. Although I hope it doesn't but my bonus from work doesn't show up until my 02/15 paycheck and that is what I am using to buy the car.

Ask to contact the previous owner of the car and ask them some questions; oil consumption, repairs, mechanical issues, etc. Have your offer be contingent on a successful inspection. I dunno, I think with some basic guidance from the folks here, you can get a good feel for the car yourself and make an informed decision. Look for smoke on startup. Pull the dipstik and check the quality of the oil. If it's full and fresh, probably burns oil. If it's full and a bit dirty, probably does not consume too much oil. Does the car drive straight? Does she stop well? Does she accellerate rapidly and smoothly without hesitation? Take a few good turns....how does she handle?

send us a picture of the car. Actually send many pictures. Some people here can spot problems with just a picture of an area sometimes. take as many as you can. You can even include the fat salesman if you want. Hopefully he won't be resistant or resilient.

chris..did you mean to say 'reticent'..not 'recitent'? ;) i myself was actually reticent to belabor these spelling/grammar usage concerns on a monday morning..but too late now! :)
ryan

Thanks bb80sc.. I have been amazed at people's abilities on here to diagnose cars. I would be glad to post pics and what I know about the car for these reasons. Especially since I don't own it yet. I say this because people are so brutal and critical on here which is good for this scenario but bad if I were a guy who say just restored a car or something. I do feel like I am batting a bit out of my leauge on this 87 3.2 model I was actually dead set on getting a SC b/c they are so much more in my price range but I haven’t seen a 3.2 this nice on the east coast since I moved here. If I go with the 3.2 I will not only blow my budget but also go into debt temporarily and probably force my hand to sell my Miata as well. Whereas I could get one of 3 SCs I have lined up and still have a budget to work with for mods, repairs, etc....

Get a sorted SC, they are a great car too!

1. Don't leave them your car - it could be made to be a bailment, but you still don't want to do that.

2. These cars are not rare, so I would find another to look at - esp. from a private owner...

3. Maybe the dealer has a point. See if there is any way you can get him to let your mechanic look at it there or near there. Do you live in an isolated area? If not, then move on as per above. If so, then it is a harder choice. But you could take a vacation to Calif. or something and have one of the well known shops there PPI a car - people do long distance deals on these cars all the time. Whatever you do, don't abscond with the car and drive to your mechanic's place w/o permission. You would face either a civil law suit or the sheriff....

4. Resil... not used properly above. Resistant may be what you want.

Of course. :rolleyes: There's nothing more embarrasing than correcting someone's spelling - incorrectly.
-Chris
reticent reticent reticent reticent reticent reticent reticent reticent

I think the word we're looking for here is "reluctance." Amazing how easily we can take a thread OT.

By the way, what does the winner get when we finally guess what kwm really meant?

Yep this thread is definitely more sideways than an early 930 in a turn on black ice in a summer downpour while driven by the owner's 16 year old son. Anyway, I just talked to one for the 2 fellows who owned the car before it came to this lot. The car grew up in PA. Then moved to VA. The 2nd owner, who I spoke with, only had the car from 90k to the present 120k. He is the owner who had the valve job done. I asked him if the timing chain was done as well and he said no. Which left me thinking what the hell kinda shop pulls the heads off this car at 95k and doesn’t change a $140 timing chain? I didn’t ask the former owner this but is screaming in my head as he told me the work done. Plus during the valve job he also had the flywheel resurface, clutch and throw out bearing changed.....why no timing chain I have no damn idea but once again it is adding to my questions about this car.

No timing chain because, first there are two timing chains, and second 120K miles is nothing on a 911 timing chain. You can't think of a 911 engine like you do other engines. These are multiple row steel chains. Very tough.

yhea but if you are right there at 95k you would not just go ahead and change it? It seems to me it would be like putting a new timing belt on a water pumper car and not going ahead with the water pump change at the same time it is right there and you have that many miles on it. Not to mention if that chain goes your whole engine goes and you just put $5800 into the car for a valve job. Doesn’t factory service manual say it needs to be changed at 100-120k and this shop has a car at 95k and they don’t suggest the change?

And since they had the heads off did they put in a new P&C set? And why didn't they do the rod bearings? Kind of silly of them, they had the engine just sitting there and all..
;)

No doubt, I am also upset that while the clutch was being replaced they didnt also go ahead and rebuild the trans, polish the Fuchs, rebuild the pedal cluster, and make me a turkey pot pie. I may write this shop a harsh letter I do have their address, and I will cc: their congress person as well.

If you want a Turkey Pot Pie you have to buy a Volvo...

:eek:

lol..not even 20 posts yet, but you'll fit right in with this group, kwm..a belated 'welcome' from me. :D good show!
ryan

He was iffy at first, but he is getting the hang of it... LOL

Try this thread: Purchase agreement.

You are getting some good advice here.
Most states have fairly strong consumer law to protect from unscrupulous dealers and unfair practices. Know your rights; they may already be in law.

I can think of all sorts or reasons why a seller wouldn’t want a PPI, particularly off premises. What if the buyer finds something wrong? The seller would rather not know so he can “innocently” sell to someone else. What if the buyer doesn’t pay the mechanic? The seller is now faced with paying to get his car back or face a mechanic’s lien. Figure out his concerns – they are all easily addressable.

A good agreement fairly protects both parties.

Best,
Grady