High mileage ok? May Buy Tomorrow!

[JPtahoe]

Help. I am looking for my first 911 and am driving 4 hours to look at a car tomorrow. My good friends mechanic/friend called and has a customer with a car for sale. This is an '87 cab with 174K miles on it. No engine work done. The mechanic has maintained the car for 14 years...all records. It has been impeccably cared for, serviced, garaged, etc. It has been driven by an older female that now cannot get in and out comfortably.
So, if I like the car, it checks out with a ppi, etc, should I be concerned with the 174K miles?
I appreciate any input from anyone with more experience (in the porsche realm) than myself.

Thanks in advance!
JP

[Kemo]

well... 174 is up there. Since they have been using same mechanic for 14yrs, that says alot.

[techweenie]

It's unheard of for a 3.2 to go 174K without valve guide replacement, IMO, so I wonder about the 'no engine work' part of the statement.

If you''re going to keep the car for a very long time, it could be a good deal. But although Porsche enthusiasts talk a good game about quality, durability, etc, they are frightened by high mileage (I know this from selling a high mileage late Porsche a year ago).

Knowing that you will meet resistance from prospective buyers, I'd have to say that as a first Porsche, this might not be your best choice because if you change your mind and want to sell, you could lose a chunk of money.

[DW SD]

Top end job is $5k to $6k. Many of these engines needed top ends at 50k to 70k, with most needing them before 120k. With the amount of money on the line, like TW said, make sure of the condition of the valve guides. The amount of oil burned in a given amount of miles will provide an indication. However, that may not be monitored well and it requires an honest seller.

Doug

[ChrisBennet]

The price would have to be very very good because a lot of stuff gets used up in 174K. I suspect that the seller will be able to get a better price buying from someone ignorant of the true cost of a "cheap 911".
For example, if I was buying a 3.2 motor with 174K on it, I would consider it a "core" and pay accordingly.
-Chris

[kqw]

Hey...Hey...

A well cared for 3.2 will go well into the 300K range. Get a PPI and review the maintenance records for:

Frequent oil changes (every 3,500 miles or so), major services (every 15K miles or so), Fuel pump replaced? When?, Distributor checked for movement, alternator replacement?, ICV replacement? wires replaced? Shocks replaced?, Synchro's, Cam oil line replaced?, Clutch work?, DME relay replaced? when?, O2/CHT sensors replaced? when?, Brake rotors replaced? When? Wheel bearings?

And of course, check all electricals, hoses, alignment, battery age (>5 years, plan to replace), A/C and heater operation and cosmetics.

If the maintenance records are complete and done by qualified technicians, hey...go for it....

[POVI]

Chris does have a point ..
But if the car runs good
.. its is a 87 cab .. just need to get it cheap .. take whatever price
a 'normal' miles car would go for and i would deduct 5k .. and thats the price i would pay id everythign else is ok on car .

Remember if you buy the car and put 20k miles on it ..now you have a car with over 200k miles

Joe

[cbeers]

I have to agree with the Fox above. My car has 177k and runs like mad! Of course, the PO DID have the top end rebuild at 125k.

HOWEVER, another Pelican here (ZOANAS) has higher miles with NO engine work and his car screams like the rest, so there is no hard rule about it.

Just wanted to throw out the "it's not so bad" argument


Of course, do your homework, PPI and all that....

let us know what happens!

-Chris

[450knotOffice]

I agree with kqw and cbeers. If these cars are well cared for during their entire life, 175 miles is simply middle aged. I offer up the example of Alexander911's 1974 911 with over 300,000 miles on it. He's a long time owner, well over ten years, and has never had the engine opened up - and that car has the dreaded, much-maligned, supposedly unreliable 2.7 liter engine in it.

Check it out, get a PPI, and then if you still like it, get back to the board with all of the details about it's condition. Many of us can then give you an idea of what it should be worth.

[wcc]

First thing I can tell you is go with your "gut" feeling. There were many cars I walked away from because the answers to my questions were vague, downright lies, or I just didn't get a good feeling about. My wife has a good knack for "gut" feeling too. She played a major role in both my P-cars, all my bikes, and daily drivers. Our "gut" feeling hasn't been wrong yet. I've turned down cars with low miles and a perfect PPI and a good price, because I didn't get a good feeling about the car/deal. I bought both my cars without a PPI and couldn't be happier.

My first P-car was a '85 one owner with 194K miles on it. Owned it for years now but only drive once in a while and now it has 210000 on it. One thing I decided with my 194K mile car was it's a "Lifer" car. What I mean is if I tried to sell it I wouldn't get SH&^ for it unless I dumped in a ton into it. When the kids are older this 200k mile car WILL be my daily driver, that's how confident I am in it. I've taken it on 12hr road trips without hesitation. All I'm saying is a high mileage car can be just as dependable as a low mileage car if properly taken care of.

GOOD LUCK!!

[POVI]

Also,
you can look at the car like i would ... Parts value ( have sawsall in hand )

wheels+ tires 1000
fenders 400
hood 200
core motor 3300
injection system and box 800
trans 1200
seats and interior stuff 1500
rear quarters 400
glass 300
rear suspension 500
front suspension 500
front and rear lights 300
cab top and hardware 1000
body cuts $500
and misc bits unscrewed / unbolted / cut / sawsalled / or air chisled off
$$$

You should be able to get 12k + parting out , once your done driving her.

[vash]

i was just up in tahoe, and i saw a 911 running early morning down a frozen road. it made me smile.

i think a high mileage car is fine. get the PPI, and play the mileage in your favor in terms of purchase price...

[DW SD]

Originally posted by 450knotOffice
I agree with kqw and Povi. If these cars are well cared for during their entire life, 175 miles is simply middle aged. I offer up the example of Alexander911's 1974 911 with over 300,000 miles on it. He's a long time owner, well over ten years, and has never had the engine opened up - and that car has the dreaded, much-maligned, supposedly unreliable 2.7 liter engine in it.

Check it out, get a PPI, and then if you still like it, get back to the board with all of the details about it's condition. Many of us can then give you an idea of what it should be worth.

Scott,
Alexander911 is a good example of a car which probably needed a top-end 100k miles ago. If you drive behind him there is oil on your window and front bodywork. No offense, but I wouldn't use that as a good point of reference. I bet he burns a quart every 250 to 500 miles.

Your advice about a proper PPI, including checking the valve guides is spot-on. $5k would be a big hit, if this weren't checked out properly, that's all I'm saying, which is what everyone else is saying when advising the PPI.

You could have the same problem with a 65k 911, too, I suppose.

Even if you trust the owner, verify (through PPI).
Good luck!

Doug

[don911]

Originally posted by techweenie
It's unheard of for a 3.2 to go 174K without valve guide replacement, IMO, so I wonder about the 'no engine work' part of the statement.

It's not unheard of. I purchased my 87 with 173K on the clock. I had all records and dealer stamps and the engine had never been opened. I put almost 40K on the motor daily driving and at the track before buying a lower mileage motor from a fellow pelican. The motor at 210K was still running pretty good but oil consumption was going up.

My opinion is that a well taken care of higher mileage car is a great buy.

[kqw]

I am sure everyone will agree that the key to longevity is dependent upon how the car is/was maintained.

You must ferret out how that maintenance was performed and who did the work. I've seen Carrera's hit 300K and only needing valve guides however, along that road to 300K, the car was serviced timely and correctly by qualified people.

[MOMO3.2]

Some people like techweenie know more about 911's and how to drive and work on them than I will ever know. So, one would be wise to really factor in what he says.

However, I personally own a 1987 Carrera with 168,000 miles on it and the motor has never been apart. Over the past 3 years of ownership I have put roughly 32,000 miles on my car. I have only had to complete regular service on it, change (rebuild) the alternator ($97) and put new rubber on it!

It uses 1 qt of Mobil 1 every 600-1,000 miles. The valve train does sound a little noisy to me. But, having read a couple posts by people that had their top ends done and found that the valve train was still just as noisy, I am compelled to wait until I get smoking during regular operation or higher oil consumption before I shell out the money for a valve job/top end.

My car seems to run as hard under acceleration as any of the stock 911's I have been around at California Speedway or on Jack O's Malibu Canyon runs.

Perhaps I have been lucky thus far? If I were you and the car is cosmetically excellent, I would factor in some of the costs associated with an older 911 (top end, alternator, suspension) deduct that from the price, and drive it home!

Good luck.

Mike

[ianc]

Some 3.2's did have valve guide issues, but not all. Bruce Anderson mentions this in his book, and says some 3.2's don't suffer from it at all. He has not been able to nail it down any further than that unfortunately.

If this car does not have the guide problem, depending on maintenance of course, it could still run quite a long way. Check the plugs when you pull them looking for oil. You can try wiggling the valve stems from side to side as well, but unless you know what to look for, that might be a little dicier...

ianc

[JayJ911]

My 88 cab has 165k and just came back from a flawless 1900 mile trip to Daytona for the Rolex 24. Like Mike, the engine has never been apart and is still very strong, but did use a quart of oil during the trip.

As others have said, maintenance records and PPI are key, but don't be afraid of the miles alone I know of five with well over 200k and they still run great.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by ianc
Some 3.2's did have valve guide issues, but not all. Bruce Anderson mentions this in his book, and says some 3.2's don't suffer from it at all. He has not been able to nail it down any further than that unfortunately.

If this car does not have the guide problem, depending on maintenance of course, it could still run quite a long way. Check the plugs when you pull them looking for oil. You can try wiggling the valve stems from side to side as well, but unless you know what to look for, that might be a little dicier...

ianc

It's not uncommon to have serious valve guide failure in 3.2 engines at 50-60K miles.

There are always going to be mysterious 'exceptions' but when advising a novice buyer, I tend not to encourage them to count on the stars and planets all aligning perfectly...

[450knotOffice]

Doug, isn't that the truth. I vowed never to follow Alex again during a run. I had oil all over my windshield, hood, front bumper and valance, and mirrors. What a mess.

I used his car as an example because he still uses it every day as his daily driver and it runs well, even if it does smoke and belch oil.