Engine drop required for CIS swap?

nixter · 02-10-2006, 03:03 PM

My garage is telling me that they need to drop the engine to swap the CIS in my car.

As some of you may remember I got a used '80 Euro CIS to replace my rust contaminated '80 US CIS.

Is the drop needed because some the fitting size differences can not be accessed without?

n

Terry Neer · 02-10-2006, 03:19 PM

I swapped out the airbox in my '77 with the engine in place. It was kind of a PITA, but I got it done with good results. Was also a good time to replace the ripped up engine compartment sound pad.

nixter · 02-10-2006, 03:22 PM

Hmm. I've had the airbox replaced before with no drop but this is the entire CIS, everything included that sits atop the engine. WUR, fuel distrib, everything.

n

Terry Neer · 02-10-2006, 03:38 PM

I removed all of that stuff to get the airbox out. Maybe I didn't have to though.

Jim Williams · 02-10-2006, 04:04 PM

A partial drop will get you (or the shop) enough room to do the swap. Granted it's easier with the engine out where everything is more accessible, but it's not absolutely necessary. I guess some depends on how quickly the shop can do a drop and how much time they think they can save over a partial drop. Personally, I think a partial is the way to go.

nixter · 02-10-2006, 04:08 PM

Hey Jim. The damn shop has had the car for almost 5 months now. And NOW they're telling me they need to drop the engine to put that CIS in. So you think it's possible with just a partial drop hey? That means they just tilt it down but don't fully remove it and the tranny assembly right?

al lkosmal · 02-10-2006, 04:09 PM

It can be done without dropping the engine. It's a pain, but it can be done. A partial drop will make it easier. Full drop makes it very easy, but not required.

SC-targa · 02-10-2006, 06:14 PM

I'm sure that you're aware that the 80 euro uses runners that are larger than your intake ports. The mismatch will likely hurt the airflow.

Jerry

RSstop · 02-10-2006, 06:24 PM

I agree with Jim and Al. A partial drop makes it a lot easier for a big task like this, and even for just troubleshooting. I also use a 4"x4" mirror rested against the firewall and light when I need to see something back there.

Lyn

cali74 · 02-10-2006, 06:32 PM

I've R&R'd the CIS with a partial drop in an easy day with a partial drop, and I don't know barely anything about it, nor had I ever worked on it before.

Why do it then? Wiring needed to be routed under the intake...doh!

oh yeah, the full drop is just as easy when you leave the transmission in the car, shops charge WAY too much for how long it takes. Probably one guy 2 hours to do the whole engine removal without the tranny.

Jim Williams · 02-10-2006, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nixter
Hey Jim. The damn shop has had the car for almost 5 months now. And NOW they're telling me they need to drop the engine to put that CIS in. So you think it's possible with just a partial drop hey? That means they just tilt it down but don't fully remove it and the tranny assembly right?

I've done it this way. I've removed and replaced an air box without a partial drop. Would I want to do it again..... No. But a partial drop will give you enough room for a CIS removal if you remove the rubber boot across the top first. This let's you see what you're doing a little better. Just look carefully at all the lines, electrical, oil, and fuel and you can see what needs to be disconnected. Look in the shift tunnel and disconnect the shift linkage as well so you don't bend the shifter as the whole assembly tilts down.

The transmission mount bolts should be loosened, maybe 3/8 to 1/2 an inch, doen't get carried away and loosen them too far! For safety's sake, always put jack stands underneath so it can't fall on someone if there is a miscalculation....

HarryD · 02-10-2006, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nixter
My garage is telling me that they need to drop the engine to swap the CIS in my car.

As some of you may remember I got a used '80 Euro CIS to replace my rust contaminated '80 US CIS.

Is the drop needed because some the fitting size differences can not be accessed without?

n

I have no clue of a drop is needed or not but if it was me....

I would ask the shop why. While some here are telling you a drop is not required, they do indicate it does result in increasing the difficulty in doing the work. This normally translates into more time start to finish. If the engine drop reduces the total time to the same or less than doing in "in place", why make it hard for your shop? Besides, it would cost you the same anyway. They are not in business to do things the hard way for the callenge of it.

If it adds a significant amount of time (cost) to the overall job, then you have something to talk about.

My 0.02

sammyg2 · 02-11-2006, 08:00 AM

I agree with your mechanic. If I were getting paid to do this job i would insist on pulling the engine.
It is easier to pull the engine than it is to fight with nuts and swivels and extensions and things you can't even see with a mirror.
It just isn't worth the small amount of labor you might save.

Jim Williams · 02-11-2006, 08:45 AM

In re-reading my prior post, I see that I neglected to put things into the perspective of the thread starter -- Nixter.

One, the car is in a mechanic's garage, not Nixter's. That says he needs to rely on someone else's proposed methodology. Not mine. My frame of reference is my own basement garage, where there is only me to do the work. An engine drop for someone working on their own is a different matter from a situation in a more "professional" garage, where there is generally more than one person, and thus two sets of hands instead of just one set. This can make a big difference in the time to do an engine drop. And my time is pretty cheap when working on my own car, so time is not an issue.

Admittedly, the easiest part of a CIS swap is getting the old one out, compared to getting the replacement in. Installation of the replacement is far easier with the engine out.

I shouldn't imply that the way I might do it is the way the shop should do it.

HarryD · 02-11-2006, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Williams
In re-reading my prior post, I see that I neglected to put things into the perspective of the thread starter -- Nixter.

One, the car is in a mechanic's garage, not Nixter's. That says he needs to rely on someone else's proposed methodology. Not mine. My frame of reference is my own basement garage, where there is only me to do the work. An engine drop for someone working on their own is a different matter from a situation in a more "professional" garage, where there is generally more than one person, and thus two sets of hands instead of just one set. This can make a big difference in the time to do an engine drop. And my time is pretty cheap when working on my own car, so time is not an issue.

Admittedly, the easiest part of a CIS swap is getting the old one out, compared to getting the replacement in. Installation of the replacement is far easier with the engine out.

I shouldn't imply that the way I might do it is the way the shop should do it.

Jim,

BINGO! It can be done in place but it will take longer. The difference in this case is the value of our time and the DIY Guy's willingness to spend time and effort to avoid more out of pocket costs. But on the other hand, as the paying customer, you need to understand why the mechanic is choosing to do what he is proposing and what are the viable alternatives.

As an example, I have a leak at my shift linkage seal in my transmission. If you do a search, many here will say you do not need to pull the engine/transmission to perform the replacement. Yet my mechnaic is adamant that he will only do it with the transmission out of the car.

I told about my findings here and he explained that he knows it MAY do doable in the manner I suggested but, if he did it that way, he could not warranty his work. He went on to explain about the difficulty in getting the new seal in square or scoring the area where the seal goes. For him, too much of a risk and he did not want the hassle of a redo of this job.

emcdan · 02-12-2006, 04:58 AM

I think P-car owners fail to see how easy the task of engine removal is. A garage with the necessary tools can do it very quickly and perform simple repairs with ease.

If it is at a garage, your at their mercy for their method. If I was doing it for someone or my own car, I'd take it out instead of beating my hands up.