72 Dash light / & heater control questions

[joetiii]

So I finally got to drive the old 72 T Targa that's for sale down the street from me. Nice clean body with fresh paint, corrected top, new calipers & pads, no oil leaks, no smoke. The restorer doesn't have any mechanical records from the previous owner so I am definitely getting a PPi done. I am new to the vintage porshes.

My question relates to the dash lights on during the test drive. The top red light blinks in the speedometer cluster & after doing some research, discovered that the emergency brake is pulled up. The lower red light on the dash comes on when cold and went out after driving a bit. The light came back on at idle after warm. Whats this indicator?

The heat defrost controls..... how do they work?

BTW, the car sat off its wheels on a lift most of the winter. I remember having to realign an old Charger's torsion bars when the motor was out of it for 30 days. Will I need to do the same here? The car felt very bouncy light in the front during the testdrive. Much different than the 84's & 89's Ive driven.

thanx

joe

[javadog]

Joe,

The red lights you mention were probably in the oil temp/oil pressure combination gauge, not the speedometer. If so, the lower one should have been labeled with a G in a circle and is the charging indicator. When it's on, the battery is not getting recharged.

There is a lot of information on the heater controls in the archives of this board. You can do a search for more information. In short, the top lever on the dash (two levers, in some 911s) controls the volume of ambient fresh air admitted into the car. The middle lever controls whether that fresh air goes to the footwell outlets or upper dash outlets. The lower lever controls the direction of flow of heated air in the same manner as the middle lever. There is usually one lever (or two in some cars, or an automatic control, in some later cars) between the seats, on the floor that controls the volume of heated air admitted into the cabin. Once you learn the system, it's pretty simple.

I wouldn't worry about the torsion bars. The light feeling in the front end is because the car is probably 500 pounds lighter than the Carreras you have driven. The amount of fuel in the tank has an effect on the way they feel too. Also, the steering wheel is larger, the front tires are narrower and these both contribute to a lighter feel. The front struts may have been a little weak if it was "bouncy."

Good luck,

JR

[joetiii]

Is it normal for the charging light to be on at idle?
.

Also, now that I remeber back, when i discovered the e brake was pulled up a click and the light flashed, i put the handle down all the way as well as the idle control which is between the seats. Interesteing to note that when i took my foot off the gas and coasted in neutral, the engine stayed idling at 2000 rpms. Came down slowly but when i reached down and pulled the accelerator pedal up, the idle came down. Seems like the cable may be sticking a bit. normal?

joe

[javadog]

Joe,

It's not unusual for the charging light to stay on after the car is first started, until the engine revs are increased a little above idle. It would not be normal for the light to come on every time the car gets back down to an idle, if the idle speed is set correctly.

The high idle is not normal. There is a linkage with a couple of bell cranks, as opposed to a cable. It sounds like there is a problem somewhere. It could be worn bushings at a bell crank, a bad or incorrect spring, lack of lubrication, etc. It needs to be looked into during a pre-purchase inspection.

I'd wager that the car has a lot of little things that need attention. I'd have a good, early 911-knowledgable shop spend at least half a day going over the car. I'd also have a body shop/restoration shop owner look at it.

JR

[jeff m]

With regard to the rpm remaining at 2000. If all is working correctly then the rpm should "drop like a brick" back to idle because the fuel shut off solonoid should operate when the foot is removed from the gas.
That's assuming the throttle lever to the left of the handbrake is pushed all the way down. (used for starting)

This should not deter you from buying the car if all else is good.

[randywebb]

check the fan belt -- but pretty common for the light to be on

[joetiii]

My guess on the high idle is a linkage issue since I could reach down and pull back the pedal and the idle dropped right down. I've scheduled a PPi for friday.

Since both the seller & myself have dealt in domestics up to this point (where i've never done a ppi) I'm not sure of the deal etiquette. ie. do I leave him a deposit? does he contact the shop to comfirm the appt.?

The seller seems a bit apprehensive of me taking his vehicle for a day. Not that he has anything to hide because the car is all there body wise. But having someone drive off without colateral is kinda tough to swallow.

I've explained that i believe the car is done right but his asking price is on the high price of what Excellence is valuing and I want to make sure I don't need to dump money into the motor or get stuck chasing a ghost in the MFI.

[javadog]

Usually, when I buy a car, the seller takes the car to the shop for the PPI. If it's not in another city far from my home, I'd probably join him. I usually put down a small deposit on the car, once I feel that it's likely that I'll buy it. This may be before the PPI, or not, depending on how solid the car appears to be. I think the seller needs to be confortable with what takes place, so perhaps you guys should talk a little more. Perhaps you need to have a contract in place and a deposit. If so, discuss ahead of time what happens if there are material things that are brought to light during the PPI that are presently unknown to you both.

When the car goes in for the PPI, make sure they do the leakdown test when the engine is fully warm. If they don't get right on it when it gets there, make sure they drive it before they get started. It's helpful to have the seller there at the conclusion of the work. If the car has needs, usually the shop will let you take a look at the car while it's still on the lift, so they can point out any problems they have found that are easy to see. This helps the seller get comfortable with the fact that the car does have needs and nobody is trying to take him down the primrose path.

Good luck with your deal,
JR

[randywebb]

I'd be apprehensive - he doesn't know you. Put him at ease - ask if he'd like to take the car to the PPI place. If not, then park your car on the street by his house and drive the 911 over from there.

Show him your ins. card or give him a photocopy -- not sure I'd let him know my DL # tho.

[joetiii]

Well things went really well w/ the PPi on friday. Turns out the owner/restorer was more under the weather than apprehensive about letting the car go.

So here goes the results. Body is all there. A few tiny surface rust areas but the shop owner was really impressed with the condition. Fresh paint. The engine is bone dry, has the updated carrara tensioners, and a solid functioning MFI. leak down good.

New calipers and pads, new targa upholstery, new front seats, old dash cover. New front belly tray, new batteries.

Now the not so good news. The throttle sticks real bad, so much that the shop had to replace a linkage clip back by the tunnel so I could get home w/o failure. The throttle only goes half open with that much play in it and needs complete rework.

Tranny sings out of key in 5th gear and occasionally grinds going in first. The clutch engages right off the floorboard and the brake has a lot of travel before.

All suspenion bushings are original and starting to rot. Car sways side to side on the highway a bit. Rear shocks are soft and the front stuts are moist.

The owner has the car listed in hemmings for 18,7
He's offered it to me for 16,5 and has mentioned he's pretty firm at that price but knowing the throttle issue and trans concerns I think I have room to negotiate further. I don't think anyone would pay that kinda money with a dash cover and aftermarket A/C plumber but not working.

Thoughts?

[randywebb]

It's a '72 - buy it.

[joetiii]

The throttle linkage bushings seem cheap enough is ithis a DIY?

[javadog]

Yes, you can do the throttle bushings yourself but I would consider the possibility of the transmission/clutch work. If you drop the engine for this any time soon, that's the time to do the work on the linkage.

I'd get pricing from the shop on a suspension rebuild (including an alignment with corner balancing,) a transmission/clutch rebuild and their best guess as to what's wrong with the brakes. See if this affects the owner's willingness to deal. If not, are you willing to spend the money after you buy the car?

Where's the surface rust?

JR

[Early_S_Man]

Joe,

The fact that an '84 - '89 battery probably weighs twice that of the '72 pair of batteries ... explains the difference in lightness and 'feel' at the front end, but not the 'bounciness.'

Sounds like the car is a bit neglected on some systems at this point ...

It probably needs all of the following to clear up the issues you have noticed:

1. Replace strut inserts and shocks, along with new suspension bushings and anti-roll bar bushings at all four corners, and corner balance job.

2. Rebuild pedal cluster, and freshen[clean or replace, lube with spray dry moly] the entire set of throttle rod [no cable present!] ends, replace the bushings at all three throttle-linkage bellcranks. Full throttle travel can then be adressed. Clutch cable, clevis, and retaining clip needs to be replaced at the same time as the pedal cluster work.

3. The hand throttle plastic link probably needs to be replaced.

4. Clutch issues are probably the major reason for 1st gear grinding, and 5th gear, too! The fact that the owner has continued to drive with the clutch in that maladjusted state is not good, and probably accelerated transaxle synchro/slider/bearing wear. If you get the car ... gear oil needs to be changed ASAP! The 5th gear whine [probably a roller bearing] may be indicative that the transaxle was run while low on gear oil!

5. Low clutch engagement can be due to a partially-broken clutch cable with multiple strands fractured and the remainder stretching ...

Price seems high considering the work needing to be done in the immediate future ... I suggest printing this entire thread and discussing with owner during your negociations!

Good luck!

[lateapex911]

Well, it's not a concourse quality car, but it IS a desirable year. Still, given the work needed..all suspension bushings and dampers, and most likely a clutch and the pedal bushings ...thats a stout asking price.

The seller may say, "But the car has XXX dollars in it", but thats really irrelevant. The market decides what the car is worth. If the market says this is an $18K car in great solid drivable condition, and $29K in total original concours shape, then amke sure you pay $18K less the required repairs.

I would research what it will take to make it right, then discuss with the owner.

Also, look at completed auctions on similar cars on eBay, and other sources as an aid in determining the current market value.

I think $14K is a ballpark figure that I'd want to pay.

[joetiii]

All points well taken... The shop owner pulled an invoice of a guy would did a complete suspension rebuild on a 69 911s. The price was just over 3 grand with heght adjustment and 4 corner balancing.

I spoke with the owner today and he is going to give consideration for the throttle linkage. Since he is a restorer, I let him know the price he's asking needs to deliver a car with performance, handling, and good looks. That being said he's not willing to update the entire suspension, but he will do the rear shocks. The linkage and pedal bushings are a must do as well. I think I've convinced him to do the shift linkage as well.

Thanx for the points on the trans fluid. We will go over that on monday..

In the short time I've been checking out 911's & in particular early models, the prices for cars restored to original condition but not concours seems to be around the 20k mark here in New England. Now thats based on asking price but local listings run from 17,500 to 21,750.

I've read this month's Excellence and that seems to be on the high side so If this guy doesn't do what I'm asking, I'll walk.

I appreciate your feedback and am real happy I found this bulletin board. There is a wealth of information and support for these great cars.

[lateapex911]

Just a rewference point, watch this one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4637057856&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

[Early_S_Man]

Well, Cali_Classix still writes an impressive ad ... and they finally, at last, got rid of the bimbos, especially the goth! Not a concours car, though, with the post-73 highback seats, 16-inch Fuchs, 340°F oil temp gauge, quartz clock and what the HELL are PHANTOM radial VRX tires??? What's up with no redline on the tach ... are we supposed to believe it's a race car?

Anybody want to guess what the reserve price is? I would say $40K - $50K! Way too high for a 'restified' car with incorrect, mismatched parts from a junk yard!