MID9 first problem post

[pookie]

Figured I would be the first to post a MID9 problem.

My car had been acting weird starting wise a few months ago. You could start it and drive it, but restarts were always an issue. We moved I stored the car and only last week got it back. So I've been driving every day since I had it back. In fact I have driven it everyday except Sat. when it got a wash and a wax. It had been starting fine untill last night, here's what happened.

Yesterday this is the killer. I drove it to work about 15-20 mins, drove it home at lunch then a quick stop at the bank, I mean in to sign a piece of paper and back out, started fine. After work I drove to the gym, worked out about an hour and 1/2 and drove home still started fine. I got home, and let it idle while I checked the oil. Oil level is good, slight decrease in idle when I took the oil cap off.

Now here's where it gets weird. I turned the car off, cleaned the wheels, cause I was finally gonna take some new photos for the MID9 crew,and I was going to check my timing. So I got out my timing light. I hooked up the timing light cables, turned the car on and checked the timing which was good. So I turned the car back off, unhooked the cables and was going to move the car and take some pictures.....dirty booger won't crank. Won't even try to crank. When you turn the key you here the fuel pump working, but no starter no nothing. I lost it, it was all I could do from kicking the ever lovin crap at of her. So I walked away, came back, checked all my fuses, I did not check the grounds, I don't know what I was thinking, I tried to jump start if off my Jeep, no go same thing, fuel pump, no crankie. So I gave up. I recruited my better half, (who I love for helping me) and we pushed the car into the garage where she now sits. I went inside had a shower and a beer and didn't even think about the car untill this morning.

So what do I do now????

[wholberg]

Starter solenoid?

[Oh Haha]

Bumped a fuse why setting the timing? Things don't just "happen". Check the simple things first, especially around the distributor. You could have easily bumped a wire or broke one that was brittle.

[pookie]

Checked the fuses none seem to missing, or blown. I'll recheck the wires tonight.

I searched here and in the past same issue came up and someone suggested the fuel pump check valve do to the no hot start. If it starts when I get home today that would fit with their diagnosis. If I check for fuel at the injectors and there is none that would also point to the check valve correct?

[Oh Haha]

I'm unsure about the fuel pump check valve but I did have my FP relay wiggle out from the plug just enough to cause a nostart condition once.
Try the one for your headlights or wipers and you will kow if the realy in the front trunk inthe problem.

[pookie]

I've only got two relays in my car one is red fuel pump, and one is black. You want me to put the black one in the fuel pump slot and see if it works. I won't fry anything? Also can relay be intermittent like this. I mean work fine and then not work at all?

[Paulporsche]

If you can hear the fuel pump whining then your fp relay is ok.

I second starter solenoid.

Sometimes the starter just gets gunked up w/ old grease and refuses to budge and can be loosened w/ a hammer whack. You can also check the wiring and connections to the starter.

It's also possible your battery is low. Sometimes there is sufficient voltage to run the fp but not that and the starter.

And maybe your ignition switch is bad.

In my car, I just decided to replace the starter and solenoid w/ a new high torque model. I figured 29 years was sufficient service and the higher torque would be better for my hi comp engine.

[Oh Haha]

Sorry, didn't catch the part about your FP running.

[Grady Clay]

If the starter solenoid is sticky, normally you can still hear a “click” but no cranking.

Since the fuel pump is operating, you know you are getting power to the ignition switch. The starter contacts in the switch are still suspect.

I would get under the car and inspect the connections at the starter (and the transmission ground strap while you are there). After you are sure the starter connections are good, install a long jumper wire at the yellow starter wire. Bring that to the cockpit with a test light. Turn the ignition switch and see if you get power to the starter. If the test light comes on yet still no cranking then the problem is in the starter. If the test light doesn’t come on then the problem probably is in the ignition switch. You can confirm the starter function by connecting the jumper wire to the battery+.

Needless to say, take all the normal precautions when under the car with stable jack stands, front tires chocked both directions, a jack under the engine mount and a safety block under the rear of the pan.

Be careful around the starter as the battery is still connected. You may want to disconnect the battery ground while you connect your jumper wire.

There are several other possibilities but this simple test will confirm or eliminate this possible cause. The most aggravating situation is if it goes back to working Ok for no apparent reason.

Pardon my ignorance - what is MID9?

Best,
Grady

[Paulporsche]

Grady,

See Mid-Year Owners...New Name Poll thread

(Sorry, don't know how to post a link)

[pookie]

Thanks Grady

I printed off your instructions and will give it a go this afternoon when I get home.

I'm going to try and convert the old girl into my daily driver, which means this is probably the first in a series of post to get her in top notch order.

Thanks to all
Ryan

[pookie]

Ok under the car now, well not now, but ground strap appears good.

Connections on the starter seem good, just dirty.

I need to hook up the test lit and test it, but neither of the wires on the starter look yellow.

O I also gave the starter and solenoid a couple of light taps with a rubber mallet, and tried it no go.

[pookie]

Thank you Grady Clay

I followed the procedures that you gave me. I used the Bently manual to ID the yellow wire. And here is what I found.

I used the test light and found that the soleniod had power when the key was turned. After reading about testing it in Wayne's manual I was hesitant as I thought I might fry something. So after the light came on and I knew it was good, I cleaned all the connections with rubbing alcohol. And tried it still no spark. So I got pretty pissed and whacked the starter a few more times, my wife tried it before I could say not to and it cranked. Woohoo.

So I lowered it down, washed the crud off my hands and was going to go for a drive. Went out to the garage and it wouldn't start, friggin a. So I jacked it back up, couple more hits, I'm talking pretty light hits here, on the starter, lowered it down again and she starts. Took a short drive came back had a bite let it sit for about an hour, just tried it again and it started.

So I assume the starter is bad or going bad, on its way out. Since it starts after a couple of whacks though would that mean it is bad or just dirty and full of crud?

Thanks

Ryan

[Grady Clay]

Ryan,

Right on!

The fix is to buy a rebuilt starter exchange. They are available from out host. They will send you a rebuilt starter (basically all new internal parts), charge you a core fee and credit you when you return the core. You can even use the same box.

Remember to disconnect the battery first.

It takes somewhat of a contortionist to do this but with the right tools it is OK. Note the exact location of each wire. The battery wire is easy. Your starter probably has two smaller wires to two other terminals. Use the opportunity to clean the electrical connections. What is the condition of the rubber boot that goes over the starter battery cable?

When you have the starter off, inspect the condition of the ring gear teeth. Clean the starter mating surface on the transmission.

Working on cars (even cool 911s) can be frustrating at times. When you find yourself in that situation, stop, have a beer and try again another day. You can come on the Forum and vent.

Getting your 911S back into regular service will have its trials and tribulations. Take it all in stride.

Best,
Grady

[Paulporsche]

Ryan,

Glad to hear the hammer whack suggestion got you going. Apparently the grease inside hardens over time, keeping the thing from spinning.

As I mentioned, 30 yr or so seems like good service life to me, so time for a replacement.