No turn over on recent engine drop/install.

[Gunter]

Another post just found the problem after much work and parts-replacement: A NEW battery that failed after having been tested twice by one shop.
Bench testing:
The solenoid would energize and the starter would spin?
Strongly? Several times?
Starter installed:
Solenoid energized (Noticable click) but starter will not spin?
I would have the battery tested by a shop that can put a real load on it.
Remove all wires from the solenoid/starter. Put a good battery close to the starter. Run a heavy gauge wire to the pos starter connection and the neg to where the regular ground strap is connected on the transmission.
Now bridge the pos starter-connection to the spade on the solenoid.
The solenoid should energize, engage, and spin the starter.
If not, I would suspect an internal problem with either the contacts being burned or there is no proper ground.
Ensure that the car is out of gear and securely jacked up while you are under there.

[Kirk Lundmark]

Dr.,

I hooked the starter up as instructed. I used the battery from the car after fully charged. The starter engaged the flywheel and turned over the motor! Damn that + lead gets hot fast when it is rubbing your face.

Now that we know the starter engages and turns the motor where too next?

My wife has always said I get too much mileage out of your line "You don't know what you don't know."

I am this close to shipping it off to the shop. It's almost July and I have only driven this thing about 12 miles.

Thanks for the help.

Kirk

[Gunter]

I would leave the fully charged battery connected to the pos terminal on the starter. Meaning: The battery is underneath the car, close to the starter, short heavy gauge wire connected to the pos on the starter.
The neg battery cable is connected to the transmission where the ground strap normally is connected.
The yellow wire from the ignition switch is now connected to the Faston spade on the solenoid. (There is another yellow? wire connected to the solenoid which goes to the timer for the cold start valve).
Crawl out from under and turn the ignition key.
Is the solenoid kicking in and the starter rotates the engine?
If not, I suspect that the yellow wire from the ignition switch is old and tired. Run a new wire, it's been done by a few people, do a search.
If the engine actually starts with the improvised set-up, I suspect that the heavy black wire coming from the battery up front has a problem making it to the starter. (The black wire comes from the battery, the red wire comes from the alternator; they both go on the same connection on the starter) Check the condition of the crimped-on terminals.
Since you can make the starter run with the improvised set-up, the problem appears to be in the existing old wires.
Let us know what you find.

[Kirk Lundmark]

Gunter,

I connected everything up as instructed. The yellow ignition wire has a smaller yellow wire with a blue stripe attached to it. The two are connected to the male (Faston) spade on the solenoid.
The + lead is connected to the starter bolt and the ground is secured under the grounding strap at the transmission.

Nothing happens when I turn the key. No ignition buzz or initiation of the fuel pump and no dash lights.

I assume that the yellow wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid is too weak. Is it possible to run a new wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid to check that circuit or should I just plan on replacing the wire?

Regarding the hot start relay. How are most mounting it and where? I was thinking of mounting it forward of the starter on the wall where the seat bottom is and using zip ties to bundle up the loose wires. How best to mount the fuse portion of the relay? Heavy duty double stick tape to the relay?

Kirk

[Kirk Lundmark]

Gunter,

Would an auxilary starter switch be a better option as well as easier to install?

I am still a bit of a newbie to the site. In doing a search for replacing the yellow wire, how would I do a search specific enough to get the one who has completed the rewire? Is it possible to be that specific?

I know...questions, questions & more questions.

Thanks again for you assistance. It is greatly appreciated.

Kirk

[Gunter]

Kirk:
No problem; we'll fix this. Trouble-shooting is done by elimination. We know that the solenoid and starter works with the previous test.
Before you change the yellow wire, it is possible that the ignition switch is at fault. It is made in two parts: The front, for the key, and the rear with the electrical connections.
The electrical part is available for exchange.
Test: Leave everything connected as normal except: Disconnect the pos solenoid connection (Yellow wire) and run an outside 14-16 gauge wire from the pos battery terminal to the solenoid. Out of gear, ignition on. Now touch the solenoid connection with the external wire. It should energize the solenoid and spin the starter. If it does, I suspect the electrical portion of the ignition switch is faulty.
If it doesn't, there is a possible problem with ground or, the heavy black wire from the battery to the starter may be getting weak. Corrosion? Terminals?
Test: Connect an external heavy 10 gauge wire from the pos terminal of the battery to the starter connection together with the red wire.
By running external wires from the battery, the stock wires are circumvented. In all of this, it is still possible that there is a problem with ground.
Have you disconnected the short neg cable from the body next to the battery? Removed the bolt and cleaned the area and terminals?
Try the suggestions above; it only takes long external wires.
As for the "Hot Start Kit", it is connected as you suggested yourself.
I only go on line in the early morning.
Let me know how the tests work out.
Here is a post with similar problems:

Starter? Battery?
And that ended up being the battery after much work and new parts.

[Kirk Lundmark]

Gunter,

I was not able to remove the grounding bolt for the negative from the battery. I put a 13mm nut on the back and tried to back it out. I put enough force on it that I felt that I may snap it before removing it.

I did test #1: connecting the solenoid to the + on the battery with the ignition on. I connected the lead and got the solenoid to engage but not the starter.

I did test #2: Connecting the starter directly to the battery and was able to start the engine! It sounds like I did not properly adjust my valves (more noisy than before ) and that there is a bit of residual oil in the system (blue smoke coming from the right side heat exchanger.)

A bit of history on why I am where I am. I started the car while in storage this spring. I placed the rag I used the check the oil in the engine compartment closed the hood and proceeded to drive home. Along the way I noticed a strange smell. I was two blocks from the church parking lot, hit the gas and two seconds later I saw blue smoke.

I shut it down immediately. It turned out the rag went through the fan and knocked off the belt. The Porsche dealer checked it out and said all was fine except for intake gaskets. I decided to do that and other miscellaneous things my self.

The car has 185,000 miles with a complete top end rebuilt at 162,000 and new head bolts.

Thus, that is why I am where I am.

I did replace the electrical part of the ignition during this procedure as I was previously having hot start problems.

Any other thought?

Again...Thanks,

Kirk

[Kirk Lundmark]

Gunter,

I went out to try the car again late last night. I tried the starter jump and got nothing. I thought I may have missed something and checked my connection and tried it again. It worked that time.

I hooked up my charger for the night. I went out this morning to try it with a fully charged battery and got nothing. No spark at all.

By the way, the alternator light was on last night. I did replace the oxy sensor during the engine drop as the light came on last fall prior to storage.

Thanks,

Kirk

[Gunter]

Make sure you account for the whole rag; small parts from it resting against cylinder-fins will cause excessive heat there.
If you couldn't get the bolt off, it means that it is rusted in. Soak with penetrating oil and try again. If it breaks off, drill it out and re-tap the thread. I replaced mine with SS.
If you don't have the Bentley Repair Manual, get one and trace all ground connections. The neg is as important as the pos. Open and clean.
I use dielectric grease on all electrical connections, especially the 14-pin and 6-pin plugs.
It sounds to me that you may have a bad ground or not enough juice is going to the starter.
Try this: Everything connected as normal except: remove the heavy black wire from the starter and connect an external 10 gauge heavy wire from the pos of the battery to the starter meaning: You have the red wire (From the alternator) and the external heavy wire from the battery connected to the starter. Now turn the ignition key.
Does it start?
If so, there is a problem with power supply to your starter with the existing stock wires.
If it doesn't start with this test, I suspect a bad ground.
If it only makes the solenoid click but doesn't crank the engine, it can only be a bad battery, pos wires or ground.
The solenoid doesn't take much power but the starter uses a lot of Amps.
A solenoid is just an electro-magnetic switch that engages the starter into the ring-gear on the flywheel and at the same time provides an internal contact that energizes the starter.
It's hard to do it from a distance; do you have a friend, or Pelican head, nearby who understands the issue?
The problem is probably very simple.
Please, do the test above and let me know exactly what happens.
Couldn't get on the site yesterday; PP was down.
Are you sure your battery is up to it? Charged and load-tested?

[Gunter]

If the alternator light is on, it indicates a problem with the charging system. You need to remove the alternator and have it checked.
Make sure that the ground wire from the engine-case to the alternator is connected. Some '82's didn't have the wire from factory but Porsche recommended it to be added.
If this car wasn't well maintained during it's life, the wiring and ground connections are suspect.
Just charging the battery doesn't mean that it is good.
I suggest that you take it to a shop and have it load-tested.

[Kirk Lundmark]

Gunter,

The engine was removed in order to get all of the rag as well as replace intake gaskets, injector seals etc.

Is the ground bolt counter clockwise to remove? The car came from San Diego and has absolutely no corrosion on it. There is no corrosion on either the mount point or on either of the cables. Where did you get an SS bolt?

I have so much diaelectric grease in this that I am beginning to have thoughts of lust for this vehicle.

Did you mean to disconnect the black wire from the battery? I do not have a heavy black wire connected to the starter, only a red one. I did disconnect a black wire from the battery, about the same size as the yellow wires, and ran a #10 lead to the starter with the red wire. I then turned the key to start and connected the lead to the + battery. Nothing happened. No energizing of the fuel pump, lights etc. Ground??

I also disconnected the main cable from the battery, clamped the lead to the +, and ran the lead to the starter and got absolutely nothing.

Something new seems to be happening. Previously my fuel pump was only engergizing when the key was all the way in the start position. It now runs in the run position. Like it should? I assume that I had cleaned a ground that previously was not making ground.

With the hot start relay installed the starter makes a click when the key is turned to the run position. I get ten volts at this point but nothing at the soleonid. The hot start instructions call for hooking up the blue wire to the blue wire with a stripe. I have a smaller yellow wire with a blue stripe. I assume this is the correct one as the other wire appears to be the yellow wire from the ingnition.

I have the alternator ground strap arriving tomorrow. I had the alternator bench tested. The tech found that one of the brushes was hanging up. He cleaned the armature and blew compressed air to clean things up. He said the rest of it was good. I pulled the battery and had a seperate shop load test it. It came out good. Second test. First test came out good as well.

I did start it again after having the alternator checked out. The car ran again but the battery light and the oxy sensor remained on. Does the oxy sensor have a dual function as the alternator light? I seem to remember that from a prior post.

As far as local Pelicans, I will wait for the ground strap and your reply before sending up the white flag.

Thank you so much,

Kirk

[Jim Sims]

Fuel pump should only run when the engine is turning over and inducting air: either by being turned over by the starter or actually operating and running. If the engine is not operating and running, then the fuel pump should not run even with the ignition key in the "on" position. Check that the wiring plugs for the CSV and air flow switch are plugged in and not switched for each other - this is a very common error.

[Kirk Lundmark]

Jim,

Thanks, but please help me a bit. What are the CSV and the air flow switches and where are they located?

Your input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Kirk

[Gunter]

Kirk:
You need a Bentley SC Repair Manual which has the electrical schematic for your car in it.
We are going around in circles here.
The starter has to have 2 heavy pos wires connected: One is black from the battery, the other is red from the alternator. Ground for the starter, and solenoid, is internal.
The solenoid has 2 connections: One is the yellow wire coming from the ignition switch, the other is from the timer for the cold start valve.
It sounds like you have other issues with the electrical system and a limited understanding of wiring/continuety.
My suggestions for testing with external wires can only work if you supply both pos and neg (ground) to the component.
I strongly recommend that you get a Bentley and read, read, read so you understand the function of all the components like valves, wiring and switches. With the schematic, get someone with electrical knowledge to help you before you go further.
Your wiring needs to be examined and restored to stock. Ox-light has nothing to do with the alternator light and the alternator light should not be on. The pump should not run with ignition on.
There must be a Pelican head nearby; post a new thread asking for help in your area. If I was close by, I would come and sort it out in an hour. The long distance diagnoses and help can only work if you had the schematic, and understanding of electricity.
Get someone to help you but make sure that this person knows how to read schematics and knows electricity.

I was away for 3 days and will be gone again for the long weekend. Let us know who will come out to your place and what was wrong with the wiring to the starter.
My feeling is that it is a simple issue.

[Kirk Lundmark]

Well I finally have my car running. I decided that after driving Gunter crazy I should find a resource that could help me. I found a shop that would take a look.

I called AAA to have the car towed there. As the guy was securing the car on the flat bed it caught on fire. He came running in and said " I think your car is on fire". I popped the engine compartment everything was OK but smelled of an electrical fire. I popped the front trunk and there was a lot of smoke but no flames. I disconnected the battery and sent her on the way.

The shop identified the problem as a short in the wiring in an after market alarm system. He wanted to remove the whole thing and I said to go a head. It shorted out a headlight wire and the yellow ignition wire. I had also neglected to connect the "black" power wire to the starter. That explains why I could not see it as it was draped across the transmission. Duh.

The electrical fire also blew out my new high torque starter. He replaced it with a stock Bosch unit. He mentioned that the high torque starter does not have a connection for the Cold Start Valve. That explains my start problems after installing the new starter.

Other than that he said the car looks and runs well.

I pick it up tomorrow.

Thanks to all who attempted to help me. I saved some money doing things myself but also learned something by having a competent mechanic look it over.

For Pelicans in the Minneapolis area check out www.flat6.com

The owner is Aaron, good guy.

Kirk

[azasadny]

Kirk,
Sounds like what just happened to me! I replaced my engine because of pulled head studs and when I put the new engine in, it wouldn't start. Several mechanics later, Tab Tanner from Autobahn Garage in Findlay, OH found the old alarm and removed it. Now the car starts and runs well, but the alternator is bad and Tab is rebuilding it. My Optima battery (4 months old) is also dead and won't hold a charge. I wonder if the "alarm from hell" could have damaged both components? Good luck, I'm glad you found the problem!!

[Kirk Lundmark]

Art,

This is too unreal. After the shop took my car off the lift, he emailed me that the alternator was not charging. I am having him remove and repair it.

My alarm is a Clifford. It was in the car when I bought it. Does anyone else have a similiar history with this?

Kirk

[Gunter]

Originally posted by Gunter
Kirk:
You need a Bentley SC Repair Manual which has the electrical schematic for your car in it.
We are going around in circles here.
The starter has to have 2 heavy pos wires connected: One is BLACK from the battery, the other is RED from the alternator. Ground for the starter, and solenoid, is internal.
The solenoid has 2 connections: One is the yellow wire coming from the ignition switch, the other is from the timer for the cold start valve.
It sounds like you have other issues with the electrical system and a limited understanding of wiring/continuety.
My suggestions for testing with external wires can only work if you supply both pos and neg (ground) to the component.
I strongly recommend that you get a Bentley and read, read, read so you understand the function of all the components like valves, wiring and switches. With the schematic, get someone with electrical knowledge to help you before you go further.
Your wiring needs to be examined and restored to stock. Ox-light has nothing to do with the alternator light and the alternator light should not be on. The pump should not run with ignition on.
There must be a Pelican head nearby; post a new thread asking for help in your area. If I was close by, I would come and sort it out in an hour. The long distance diagnoses and help can only work if you had the schematic, and understanding of electricity.
Get someone to help you but make sure that this person knows how to read schematics and knows electricity.

I was away for 3 days and will be gone again for the long weekend. Let us know who will come out to your place and what was wrong with the wiring to the starter.
My feeling is that it is a simple issue.

Another proof that some people don't really read instructions for help.
I pointed out that there has to be a BLACK wire from the battery to the starter, etc..........
Kirk, I suggest that you do not attempt anything electrical, it's not your bag. Let the shop disconnect the old Clifford and restore the electrical connections to stock.
You can sell the High-torque Starter here on PP, it doesn't need an extra connection for the CSV; a simple splice takes care of that.

Best wishes.

[azasadny]

My old "alarm from hell" is a Hofco II from 1985 and Tab Tanner found it immediately. I never would have found the alarm because it also had a Bosch relay wired into it. At times like these, it's best to have an "expert" look into it and diagnose it. It would be too time consuming and expensive to troubleshoot something like this... especially if you're a novice to 911's.

[Kirk Lundmark]

Gunter,

Thanks for your help. It is greatly appreciated.

Touche'

Kirk