Advanced Targa window adjustment help needed. Please

[david dolan]

Hi! This is about my 911SC from 1979 with electric window regulators, and my ill-fated decision to replace all the targa seals about 4 years ago. The new seals rather than fixing the leaking issues instead created more wind, damage to the targa structure, damage to my wife's hearing, a bit of surface rust, and to top it off...I could keep fish in the passenger side rear footwell after a rainstorm!
So, all in all quite a good decision, err.
The episode clearly damaged my psyche as it took me about 4 years to finally start addressing the fitment of the targa to the body and windows again.
I recently regained my composure, but, I'm feeling vulnerable again...oh no!
I’ve been working on improving the targa fit for 3 weeks now, I’ve achieved a lot of improvement, but the driver’s side window adjustment has been really trying my patience, after 16+ hours I’d have hoped to cure the window leaning too far out problem completely.
To recap what I've done:
Completely removed all the targa related seals and trimmed them like I should have in the beginning,
Refit them with a lot more attention to how they should engage with the adjacent body, window frame, glass or seal.
Adjusted the rear targa pins position to allow the top to sit lower at the back.
Found that the front left guide pin didn't fit into the hole due to interference from the trim, the dremel tool fixed that problem!
In the end with the doors open the targa fits the body at the forward and back edge better than ever, in fact I'm quite pleased with that.
What it did reveal is that I probably need some work done on the targa top itself, but that's a project for next winter.
Next, was the door to targa adjustments, the passenger side went pretty well, I adjusted the window frame height, window stop position and the angle to get the window edge to meet the targa side seal, after about 6-8 hours I was happy with it.


Next, the drivers side, and that's where the trouble started!
I’ve scoured the threads, I’ve read the targa roof repairs service bulletin, I’ve adjusted the targa side seals, I've adjusted the window height, I’ve elongated holes for more adjustability and I’ve shimmed(7 washers, yikes!), BUT I still have a rear upper window corner that won’t meet the seals properly.


I have put an entire weekend plus 2 evenings trying to achieve a good fit, it’s better than it was, but I want more.
Has anyone else gone through this process and achieved a breakthrough?
What I would like to hear is that the final fit didn’t adversely effect how tightly the seal fits at the top of the wing window frame or that the glass fit against the back edge vertical seal wasn’t so tight the window didn’t want to go up or down if the door was closed either!
Please see the attached pictures of both the driver and passenger side for a view of where I’m at now.
What I’d like to see from my fellow Pelican’s, Pelites, Pelarians, Pelanites??? is a message containing the ‘silver-bullet’ cure as well as pictures of the window rear upper corner that is sealing properly so I can see focus clearly on what I’m shooting for!
Is there a bodyman lurking out there with some tips?

[david dolan]

Hello....any GURU's out there? Throw me a rope!!!

[Won]

I have the same problem of the top of the windows "catching" the seal when the doors are closed. I've adjusted the stop on the regulator so that the glasses don't go up as far, instead just far enough to clear the lip and fit in the channel of the seal. Then I adjusted rear height of the windows to close up the gap; the glass was too low it wasn't sitting inside the channel. I don't think it really leaks water with the lips caught by the glass like yours is right now, or with window just far enough to touch the seals; the rain gutters keep the top ~1 inch of the glass dry anyway.

[Mysterytrain]

How about a picture of the front windshield seal /top fit. From the pictures it looks like the top is still sitting too high. The problem with the rear window guide adjustment is that if you pitch in inward too much the up/down window operation binds on the rear seal making it a real pain with manual cranks and no doubt a burden on the window motors. How is the door fit?

[david dolan]

Hi Mysterytrain!
Thanks for your mail.
I'll show some pictures of the front first. The first shows the gap along the front, doesn't look too bad.

Next the left side front corner, sticks up a few millimeters

as does the right side front corner,
What is apparent with the doors closed and the windows up is that the really good fit of the targa top to the body I had earlier has been affected by the door height and angle adjustments. It's clear I need to take a step or two back and try again. I'm thinking now that the first adjustment, to the wing window height really needs to be done to both sides first to not upset the roof to body relationship. Only when that's good on both sides should I move on to the window angle adjustment. You are exactly right when it comes to putting too much pitch inward as the passenger window struggles to close, and opens a bit slowly too. This brings me to another thing I've noticed at the rear pin receptacles. Perhaps due to excessive pressure or even just age the recepticles are a bit loose. I believe a shimming of the recepticles is possible and was even condoned by another Pelican J'dub in another post I read in the last few days. So, this would also help to slightly bring the rear of the targa down and also closer to the upper corner of the windows. As for the door fit, that was the first thing I changed when I started this job as both sides were slightly proud of the body panels, they have always been that way since I bought this car 10+ years ago. Always thought it needed a Porsche special tool until I read about it on this forum!
Thanks for your reply, any other tips or hints are greatly appreciated!

[Mysterytrain]

The guy you need to talk to is Dan Petchel at Cars Inc.
http://www.carsincnj.com/
Dan does targa top restoration. He has been very vocal about the front seals required for early cars being no longer available. The replacement seal needs to be shaved to fit correctly in the channel. I think the real problem is the way the seal fits at the corners. Without shaving the seal the top will ride high and you pictures show the top as high. Its my opinion that the bottom edge of the side channel on the top should line up with the bottom edge of the side channel on the windshield frame.

[david dolan]

From another source…my favorite former mechanic in San Diego I received the following diagnosis of my fitment of the targa to the car.
“ Your problem is two fold.
First the new seals are not aligned properly.
See attached photos.
The rear seal must be inboard of the top seal.
Secondly, forcing the window inward excessively will only make it pop out more so on the rear top edge.
It will also make the window very hard to roll up.
It needs to have even, but not excessive pressure at all points.
Correct your rear/top seal alignment and readjust the window. The pictures below show what a properly positioned seal should be positioned and how the glass should look when the window is up. "

I think I’ll adjust this first as it will quite probably allow the targa to move towards the back once those seals are readjusted. Then I’ll recheck the front height and send in new pictures for everyone to see. Unfortunately, we are due for a bit of rain for the next few days, and as I’m currently without a garage the weathergods control when I can play with these adjustments!

[gcrhill]

I am a member of your club like countless others I guess. I tried something new that just worked having stripped the roof for a second time back to its components. Like you I'd done the whole rubber trim adjustment thing, window thing, latch thing you name it - and it was getting better and better but still leaking in both footwells especially if parked on flat and not sloping (I have both on my drive). I went and looked at some other targas at a club event and noticed that the guttering protruded far more than mine. Over 25 years it has rested on the guttering to be put up and down and the gap had closed up. I pulled the gap with a screwdriver - especially at the leading edge to give a 3/8 inch run off all the way along. Same at the rear of the gutter. These two corners are particularly vulnerable - mine had lost paint on one corner. Suddenly the rain stops getting in which is simply capillary action round the seals. I could sit in the car when it was raining and watch it dripping. Now it runs away. So far so good. I am so confident I just put the carpet back in!

[Bob's Project]

Another source of water on your floor is having a rust hole where the targa bar and the quarter panel are welded together.

The three gill vents that are in the Targa bar allow water to collect inside. In theory it is to drain out but if the drain plugs for any reason water gathers there and eventually you get a rust hole.

This rust hole allows water to drain down through the body and spills out into the rear carpet area.

No seal alighment can stop this.

If you live in a area that cause much car rust this could be the case.

[david dolan]

Hi gcrhill and Bob's project!
Thanks for your tips, in fact I've gone out in the last few days and adjusted my guttering as you suggested, it was not even and nearly closed off on two of the four ends. When I did that I also found that the screws holding the guttering in place were a bit loose, in fact one even popped out when I was adjusting the gutter. When I reattached everything, I even injected a small amount of windshield sealant at the corners between the metal of the gutter and the targa vinyl to make sure and keep the water from intruding in to the cabin from here again! This is just one more of many steps to get closer to the goal of dry and tight inside. I haven't gone to the inspection of the targa grill water drain yet-I'm planning on a thorough inspection of that very soon though.

After getting tips from my old mechanic in California that the rear seal-targa side seals were not properly aligned I decided to be a bit more methodical and take some measurements to try and establish a baseline. I think everyone should consider doing these things to make sure everything is the same on both sides. It definitely will effect the final results.
In my on-going work on this I've made some photographic observations that I think are worth passing on.

I once again removed the rear seal and then tried to see where the side windows want to be with the help of some masking tape. a marker and a ruler.
From this I could see just how much I'd screwed things up by putting all the shims in the left door-4 mm further inboard than the right side. So, the shims had to come out. At least the window heights were essentially the same.
So, after reinstalling the rear seal so it sits inside the side seals I had the following results.


Much better interaction now between the windows and the seals.
Next step, is a readjustment of the side seals. This has been done and more pictures are coming soon to show the completed results-I've just got to ride out the rain storm thats happening as I write this chapter!