Fuchs Replicas?

[Wil Ferch]

derkpitt.... what's your point ? ..... the comparison is totally absurd if you understand the design elements of an engine compared to a wheel...

Wil

[Dan in Pasadena]

Wil,
Not only is it absurd (plus he can't spell/doesn't know the difference between "brakes" and "breaks") I think derkpitt is trying to convey that our safety concerns over fake Fuchs is a "tempest in a teapot". Much ado about nothing. You know, the "Not to worry, everything is going to be just fine" sentiment. My opinion of that is he's right!....well, that is until the one or two occasions when he is NOT right, a wheel breaks under load and at speed and then tragic things can happen.

Funny as we all fine them, there is a reason the Darwin Award jokes exist. Some guys just gotta learn the hard way. My $.02 - Fire away!

[Laneco]

We wound up with an odd collection of fuchs wheels and "fakes" wheels at one point. In the SAME size range (I think it was 16x6) the fakies were almost 5 pounds heavier!

Five pounds of extra wheel weight per corner.

Buy a sound set of used Fuchs. They look right, weigh less, have more value and in every way are a superior wheel.

angela

[derkpitt]

Well, I was just trying to stir the pot a little.
Stirred it real good.

And your right, I'm not a good speeeller, so kick me some more if that makes you happy.

I'm not trying to compare apples to oranges.
Just looking at some other places where casting is used.

I do have two old cranks at home for my cudas.
One is forged and one is cast, which one do you think I should use?

[Wil Ferch]

Derk:
If you followed the thread...you'd see that casting...as a *method* of construction...wasn't being slammed.

BUT....copying a (thinner, stronger) forged piece and casting the clone without adding structural reinforcement.... borders on criminal.

A 911 engine case....with 8 main bearing supports for the long, counter-weighted crank.... is an entirely different situation, and can in no-way be compared to the issue at hand.

- Wil

[khamul02]

what about these?
http://www.***************/productpage.aspx?pid=110674&name=911%c2%ae+Alloy+Replica+5-Spoke

They are made in Italy. Do we assume that means quality?

[randywebb]

only for food or wine

[ianc]

If you followed the thread...you'd see that casting...as a *method* of construction...wasn't being slammed.

Although it should have been. Pound for pound, a forging will always be WAY stronger than a casting. Picture a bag of boiled spaghetti. Now bend it the way you like. Now freeze it, then try to bend it. That is the way the metallic grain structure is formed with a forging, but with heat and pressure rather than freezing. The superior grain structure of the material after it has been hot-worked ensures much greater strength and fatigue resistance.

Not to say that cast wheels can't be fine, but they will always be heavier than a forged wheel and this must be accounted for in their design. Forging is more expensive, but produces a better part.

ianc

[Wil Ferch]

Ian:
You're simply expanding upon what I had said...I don't think we're in sustantive disagreement.
Casting....as a "method"...is OK but you'll need larger cross sections to regain strength...hence more weight. It's a "system" answer ( as it so often is)...

The Italian Fuchs copy makes for interesting side-bar. On the one hand...it is cast ( but Pressure cast....a bit better than gravity casting...) and if made in Italy....probably has TUV certification. I would consider this OK...pending further investigation. Maybe it was made thicker where required to get it certified.

- Wil

(EDITED )

[ianc]

You're simply expanding upon what I had said...I don't think we're in sustantive disagreement.

No, we're in perfect agreement. I was just saying that forging will produce a superior wheel to casting, and is preferred.

I too would advise the original poster to look for used Fuchs rather than go for replicas. Those Italian wheels aren't cheap...

ianc

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by dvkk
Last year at our local vintage races I saw an early 911 with 15x7 fake Fuchs on the rear. The multiple large cracks were clearly visible from 6' away. I informed the owner's wife (owner not around). Later when he was out, I cringed at every lap. Nobody died that day, but I'm sure the guy will continue vying for the Darwin award.
I wouldn't use fake Fuchs on my VW.

Why didnt you tell the safety people at the track? Sure that they would have black flagged the car immediately.

[khamul02]

Originally posted by ianc
I too would advise the original poster to look for used Fuchs rather than go for replicas. Those Italian wheels aren't cheap...

ianc

But can you pick up a decent pair of 8 X 16's for $500 ($250 each)? I guess my question, seeing how I'm looking at the italian option for 8's, is am I better off picking a new pair of what looks like a high quatily cast 8's or an old pair of forged.
What kind of price difference are we talking about?

For street only application.

[RickM]

Originally posted by khamul02
what about these?
http://www.***************/productpage.aspx?pid=110674&name=911%c2%ae+Alloy+Replica+5-Spoke

They are made in Italy. Do we assume that means quality?

From the ad:
"This replica of the standard factory wheel is manufactured using the superior low pressure casting method for a superb finish."


Superior? To what, the original?

If it were TUV approved I'm sure they'd be touting the fact.

[randywebb]

Superior to Ooog pouring lead he smelted over the fire in his cave into a depression in the sandy beach next to his buddy's cave. (Then they celebrate with roast mastodon and some mead.)

[DARISC]

Apparently "Low Pressure" casting is the latest stage of development of this bronze age old craft - Hey, would polished bronze look cool or what?

Heavy, dude !

[dvkk]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
Why didnt you tell the safety people at the track? Sure that they would have black flagged the car immediately.

Foolishly, I assumed once the owner/driver was informed he would not go out. It certainly frightened me. Apparantly his pair are bigger than mine.

After he did go out, I notified the tech inspector. I didn't stick around to see what actions they took. The guy's wife could probably figure out it was me that ratted on him.

[Jeff Alton]

Wil, are you positive the "spokes" on the replicas are as "thin" as the ones on real Fuchs?? Would seem strange that they would copy that detail accurately but still have a wheel you can just look at quickly and tell it is not an original.....

I am not a fan of the replica wheels. A search should yeild some threads of cracked "real fuchs" too. I remember one a while back where Rdane had a few of them in his possesion.

I would think, but could be wrong, that a wheel that is 20-30 years old and has countless miles on it may start to fatigue at some point?

Cheers

[Wil Ferch]

catca:

I think we're re-treading some old stuff already mentioned here....

I'm not certain about all the fake Fuchs being as thin as the original, but that is the clear implication when photos like the failed one here cropped up soon after they were made available. They do look a "bit" different from the front, I agree, so some design change may have been made. I also think that a pressure cast Fuchs replca WITH TUV certification ( if such a combo exists)..may merit a second look. Lastly, we mentioned that even forged wheels have a fatigue life and some original Fuchs, some 30-40 years old... are starting to fail.

This all requires careful scrutiny by the buyer in all cases....

Wil

[rickstark]

Picture a bag of boiled spaghetti. Now bend it the way you like. Now freeze it

[rickstark]

So are these Italians wheels made of frozen spaghetti?